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Duel2 :: View topic - The open hand "bug"
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JGW
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I've been in a haze the last few days, and the medicine has caused me to think of something, which I'm sure others have thought of already. No one calls the problem the "Aimer open hand bug" even though they are the only ones taking advantage of this script at the present time, to my knowledge. Has anyone tried this "bug" with a striker anywhere? I've got several strikers in the works around the game and I'm deciding if I want to pursue the thought of the "open hand" with the style.

I'm just curious if others have tried this and how successful you have been. I would love to get a +4 defense striker and try this out. It might not be of value in the lower levels of the game, but it could be interesting at the top end to have a style that could challenge the aimer for the top.

Would the shortcomings of the striker style be able to overcome the aimer? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm trying to make discussion here. Confused

<edit> I've not included the parry-strike in this discussion since the attack it gets is worse than a striker. Now the basher could make interesting discussion since it has a higher init and attack than the striker, with one less in the defense base.

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mrmojo
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I have a Striker in Primus with the Fist as a fav. +2 Defense I believe, but I never had the nads to develop it further. For an aimer it seems pretty simple: Incorporate your favorite OE into a dodge strategy. The striker could be run to a similar effect using some tweaking of a dodge or response strategy. A problem seems to be attack though.

Any style can be made to dodge well enough at higher skill levels, but I'm not sure it's an unbeatable type bug. I'm not consistantly giving it an effort to find out, but a few things to try stand out about the open hand:

Open hand primary, real weapon off hand. Still bonus in fighting?

Aside from directly damaging the AB, successful parrys damage the non armored open hand. Being struck by the weapon is the same. Larger weapons do more damage. Damage ratings increase the damage dealt.

Getting that Devastating Damage dealing Basher with the Greatsword fav to learn how to parry better would be cool huh? It's slightly possible.

Some weapons are more likely to break your opponents weapons than others when parried with. Shortswords seem indestructable. Since the fist can't be broken, can a parry critical deal extra damage? If not, it should.

There are some other thoughts out there, but unless people have tried them all and utterly failed, then yes, that's a bug.

Razz

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Adie
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

JGW wrote:
Would the shortcomings of the striker style be able to overcome the aimer? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm trying to make discussion here. Confused


I have a +3 defense ST with vl/hi, mace, lunge. Ya'll are happy to buy and run him! I think their utter lack of defense would keep them from being comptitive.

JGW wrote:
<edit> I've not included the parry-strike in this discussion since the attack it gets is worse than a striker. Now the basher could make interesting discussion since it has a higher init and attack than the striker, with one less in the defense base.


PSs have equal attack to STs, but they can also be gifted in it, so they're better. But I don't think they get fist fave. A BA with VH/MO, Fist, bash, +4att/def would be cool to try for sure, too bad they don't get fist. I have a BA with VH/MO, and he actually learned to defend himself pretty well eventually.

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TigToad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

First off, I believe if you go back about 30 game adjustments, there was a note about how aimers were slightly made better when fighting open handed... (years and years and years back)

The other edge is that open handed gives an increase in dodge (in theory), that extra dodge is nice with a class like aimer that has a low endurance burn.. so they can dodge a lunger until he gets tired and hit him.

The idea of a striker (or Ilike PS better since they can be +4 attack) is interesting with the fist.. but the base defense is probably low enough lungers and aimers could hit them, maxxed out, without the PS/ST being tired.

Take a striker, make him +4 defense, damage bump him up, reduce him to size 4 and make sure has fist and a rhythm suited to dodging... and you might have something... but probably just a 5-3 striker.

Honestly, I had a thought at one point of taking a PR and prizing him to fist at some point... but I also wanted to style switch a lunger to PR then do it.
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Managerr
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I'm just curious if others have tried this and how successful you have been. I would love to get a +4 defense striker and try this out. It might not be of value in the lower levels of the game, but it could be interesting at the top end to have a style that could challenge the aimer for the top.

Would the shortcomings of the striker style be able to overcome the aimer? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm trying to make discussion here. Confused


The short answer is I believe they can beat the Aimers. Guardian's nearly maxxed bare handed Striker regularly beats the top end Aimers when he runs, the problem is that Fist doesn't always give him a big enough defense bonus necessary to consistently beat the Lungers.

My Fist Striker Eligible does pretty well, but not quite good enough physicals to be a decent warrior yet.

There are various Fist (other style) warriors out there people have too. Occassionally, you'll see that maxxed LU/PL warrior in an ADM fight where they break their weapons and then suddenly become unhittable the rest of the fight, before they tire out.
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JGW
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So it sounds like there could be a rock-paper-scissors effect in the top game, but it won't be overnight since most managers (myself included) have spent time either being a high end manager concentrating on the trend of the times (aimers being the latest and greatest trend, previously lungers, plungers, parry-strikers, etc), a tournament manager concentrating on maximizing his tournament performance, or a basic manager. Typecasting (loosely) this way shows why certain styles haven't had the opportunity to flood the top levels like lungers and aimers have. As soon as some get maxed out strikers up at the top there can be some balance to the game, and this might draw some managers who have "retired" from the top end (ahem, Ultraist) to come back and work on strikers to make it to the top.

This is just a stream-of-consciousness rant. I know now I wish I would have not taken that ten-plus years off with this new found passion for the game I've developed in the last two years.

TigToad, that is an interesting idea for the style switch on a LU then fav fist. I guess any warrior that has a low endurance burn and a fist favorite could have an okay chance at the top end; loosely stated of course. Obviously the Total Parry doesn't have a shot in hell, nor the WoS. Oh, how I would love for that style to be re-programmed to have a defense bonus ability...

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Managerr
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
TigToad, that is an interesting idea for the style switch on a LU then fav fist. I guess any warrior that has a low endurance burn and a fist favorite could have an okay chance at the top end; loosely stated of course. Obviously the Total Parry doesn't have a shot in hell, nor the WoS. Oh, how I would love for that style to be re-programmed to have a defense bonus ability...


And you don't necessarily need fist to become hard to hit either. People are figuring stuff out but they're not going to blab it to everyone to keep a strategic advantage. Warriors like Tarad can become pretty unhittable when he wants to. A Lunger like Gumbo Jake is poison to bare-handed Aimers in a Mail-In format. (Gumbo scored a victory over Webbed Toes in the last Mail-In and defeated Anvil at the past FtF.
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gentleben
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sorry to bring this up again. Has a decision been made on whether or not the bug can be used by other styles other than the AB.

If so then if you were able to switch a LU to FIST FAV & DEF FAV with +5 ATT +4 DEF wouldn't he be real dangerous at the top if it could be done?

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Chief
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

gentleben wrote:
Sorry to bring this up again. Has a decision been made on whether or not the bug can be used by other styles other than the AB.

If so then if you were able to switch a LU to FIST FAV & DEF FAV with +5 ATT +4 DEF wouldn't he be real dangerous at the top if it could be done?


IIRC I don't think you can use a favorites prize to make an unsuited/unorthodox weapon a warrior's favorite - thus your example will never exist

plus back in 1987 or so (someone found it in a newsletter - I may have a copy buried somewhere) - there were a number of programming changes - the last one was Aimed blows who do not use a weapon get a defense bonus. That bonus is only applicable to the ABs - no other style gets it

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gentleben
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Chief wrote:
gentleben wrote:
Sorry to bring this up again. Has a decision been made on whether or not the bug can be used by other styles other than the AB.

If so then if you were able to switch a LU to FIST FAV & DEF FAV with +5 ATT +4 DEF wouldn't he be real dangerous at the top if it could be done?


IIRC I don't think you can use a favorites prize to make an unsuited/unorthodox weapon a warrior's favorite - thus your example will never exist

plus back in 1987 or so (someone found it in a newsletter - I may have a copy buried somewhere) - there were a number of programming changes - the last one was Aimed blows who do not use a weapon get a defense bonus. That bonus is only applicable to the ABs - no other style gets it


Suppose you use a style swap potion or 2?

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One Armed Bandit
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

gentleben wrote:
Chief wrote:
gentleben wrote:
Sorry to bring this up again. Has a decision been made on whether or not the bug can be used by other styles other than the AB.

If so then if you were able to switch a LU to FIST FAV & DEF FAV with +5 ATT +4 DEF wouldn't he be real dangerous at the top if it could be done?


IIRC I don't think you can use a favorites prize to make an unsuited/unorthodox weapon a warrior's favorite - thus your example will never exist

plus back in 1987 or so (someone found it in a newsletter - I may have a copy buried somewhere) - there were a number of programming changes - the last one was Aimed blows who do not use a weapon get a defense bonus. That bonus is only applicable to the ABs - no other style gets it


Suppose you use a style swap potion or 2?


They don't do style swap potions any more, because it is too unbalancing.

However, I'm pretty sure Chief is mistaken about not being able to use favorites potions to create unorthodox favorites. I'm sure there is at least a PS with Fist favorite and a TP with Fist favorite out there, as well as two SC favorite BAs.

Regarding your question, I think some people believe that using the Fist gives you a small Defense bonus whether you are an AB or not, similar to how the Epee gives you a Riposte bonus and how the Large Shield gives you a Parry bonus. Based on the programming note from above, most people assume that the AB Fist defense bonus is separate, more powerful, and exclusively for ABs. However, nobody really knows for sure. All we do know is there are non-ABs who are Fist favorites out there and they aren't accomplishing a damn thing in tournaments.
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Khorvinus
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

well.....if it was put in the games programming, or system, why are we calling it a bug again?


see, i hate it when my way of thinking is waaaaay off on certian matters, lol

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MarmaDuke
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In this rare instance, Chief the all wise and knowing has mis-remembered Wink

You can most definitely use a favorites potion to make any weapon a favorite for any style. FGC (lunger) has a SC favorite and has fared quite well with it. This topic has also come up in the past while chatting with Sandy, and it's most definitely an option.

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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

MarmaDuke wrote:
In this rare instance, Chief the all wise and knowing has mis-remembered Wink

You can most definitely use a favorites potion to make any weapon a favorite for any style. FGC (lunger) has a SC favorite and has fared quite well with it. This topic has also come up in the past while chatting with Sandy, and it's most definitely an option.


Has definitely been done often, and the SC for LU that Marmaduke mentions was quite the rave for a while. Idea

Have not heard of too many WF for SL, or LU, or PR, or whatever, though. Wink

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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's quite possible that a WF LU is the deadliest possible warrior in the game, can't be hit and cannot miss, but we will probably never know Laughing

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