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The Consortium
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Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8790
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hammer_Minister_of_War wrote:
drdaddy wrote:
I probably shouldn't say any of this, but I am gong to. This is my first TOGS. That said, I played back in the 80's when the game first started for years and picked back up in 95 or so for about year or two. I am back playing now with my 14 year-old son, though I must confess that he has mostly lost interest and now it is just me. Would could debate the lack of appeal for the younger crowd but that has been covered in other forums.

This is a niche game. I read somewhere in another post that the only people who still play are those that have stayed with the game and those who come back after many years of not playing. That really bonds everyone who plays this game in some way. We are a unique bunch. I guess that is what makes all this arguing and infighting seem even more ridiculous and offensive. At best, it is like a dysfunctional family holiday dinner. I have never been to a FTF, but now that money isn't as big issue, I have entertained the idea of going. After reading all this silliness, I am not sure I ever really want to go to a face.

I am most definitely not the kum-bi-ya type, but I guess I had this idealized picture of the kinds of fellow geeks and oddballs that play this game (meant in the most honorable way). Now I am not so sure. Guess I expect too much. This conversation is not only distracting from my enjoyment of TOGS but also from the game altogether. I know there have been decades of alliances and squabbles that I know nothing about, but the tone of this conversation violates a fellow "nerd" code. That's wrong and that's a real shame. The disillusioned Gen. Ironcide/Jason


I Do Not Blame You!



Well, we do!
All this "conversation" that is read on line is just words.
Best friends and brothers and sisters bicker all the time.
They get past it and some day it will mean nothing.

(We are just not quite there yet.)

_________________
Ye Old Consortium Scribe & Crapmaster 2013, Crapgiver 2014
997 ADM graduates (with 40+ manager IDs) including 105K+ fights and 68K+ wins plus 4 teams with 1000+ wins (Animal Farm DM11 @1514*; Bulldogs DM11 @ 1456; Lenpros DM30 @ 1420; Fandils @ 1330

Last edited by The Consortium on Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Street_Legal
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Joined: Jul 29, 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

BTW I've been trying and Trying and TRYING to get 66 straightened up and RSI does not respond back to emails sent (well 1 in the last 10 to be honest). And yep been sending them to CSR addy. Only response I got was "Haven't received a list of winners yet". So I can definately see how this all got messed up in the email process Wink

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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

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SwineTiger
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Street_Legal wrote:
anyone else get the arena 6 NL rather than 60


A couple of us did. I was actually relieved since I copy the NL from the Terrablood website and reformat in Word according to areas of interest and better flow for the following turn prep. If they sent me the 200 page document, it would have just been a waste of paper. Kind of like the fights from my first TOGS turn.

I feel sorry if those in arena 6 got the TOGS nl, especially since they probably needed three people to transport it from the mailbox to the house.

SwineTiger
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Sentinel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:17 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well, this has been quite a week, hasn't it?

I haven't posted anything yet due to being busy in RL and to being a bit disgusted with this whole thing. I meant to write something before now, but Soultaker ended up taking most of the heat since his post about us removing ourselves from TOGS. Simply put, After all the heated talk about cheating, integrity, distrust, taint, and the like last week, neither Soultaker or I could take it anymore and we decided together that it would be best for us and for the contest for us to step away from this TOGS. This was to eliminate this controversy and the idea of a tainted or asterisked contest that might affect people's enjoyment as well as to spare Nuln from having to make a decision that would cause problems and have some people mad, upset, or feeling cheated no matter what.

I do want to clear a couple things up before going into my long-winded diatribe below.

First, I explained what happened with the second team running accidentally, but I do want everyone to know that it was MY mistake and not RSI's that the wrong team ran. I can't even conceive of how I did it other than I must have just been looking at the wrong team on the newsletter.

Second, I realize how people might have a different take on the level of infraction running a second team may have because they were not privy to the REASON behind the rule and why it was put in initially. We wanted to be sure that no one used a second team to challenge into the contest. Period. I technically don't have and never have had any issue with anyone running a second team, but figured it would be simpler/wiser to just avoid anyone even running a second team because that would eliminate any potential for a situation where someone may end up challenging a TOGS warrior and create real problem. That didn't happen here and this understanding of the SPIRIT and REASON for the rule is why this really is a non-issue. Not knowing that background may make it seem like more of an infraction and I'm sure is part of the reason for people's reactions being more severe than makes sense to me.

Now to the part about Soultaker and I stepping away from this TOGS and some bigger issues about this particular TOGS and how things will be in future ones:

[The word "I" will be used through much of this when it may often refer to myself and whoever else was in charge of administering and officiating TOGS with me ore refer to myself and my partner Soultaker, but it's simpler to say "I" and I also don't want to presume to speak for them.] As a side note for any new players, you have to understand that my reaction here is not just about this current incident, but the culmination of things that have come up, little games that past and present managers have tried to play over the years, and an ongoing whittling away at the basis of what the TOGS was created for. And that purpose is for the FUN of everyone in Aradi, to make the arena more enjoyable, to give the creative people there and incentive to write in the newsletter, and mess with their friends. And also the competition of fighting good managers and people that you respect.

In general, I'm fed up to the point of not being able to take it anymore with all the drama and accusations and the various B.S. things we've had to deal with over the last few TOGS. Now, with the current accusations and insinuations of cheating and dishonesty and how people in the FONZ could not be honest and could not be trusted to deal fairly, it brought me right back to all the times I've been so frustrated that I didn't even want to play TOGS anymore, despite the fact that it is probably my single greatest pleasure in the game.

In helping putting this contest together and in adjudicating it over the years, I have ALWAYS tried to be fair. Often I've gone overboard and made decisions just to try to eliminate any potential appearance of favoritism just to appease the rules lawyers and those people who were expressing honest concern, jockeying for a given result for gamesmanship purposes, or just frankly being douche nozzles (nod to Pauly for the pointedly descriptive phrase) out of habit. It always seems that I end up catering to these annoying pukes and the rules lawyers who are trying to push things and live in the margins instead of just having the integrity and the decency to live within the framework intended and compete straight up. With respect to what ought to be a non-issue, all the complaining about theoretical implications, insinuations of cheating or compromised integrity, and outright accusations of untrustworthiness and inability to be fair, had me feeling yet again forced to make decisions based on how other people want TOGS to run and what they want it to be, and not based on the fairness of the situation in my judgment.

Given the past and current drama, I found myself faced with what I felt were 2 primary options:
#1 - Quit playing TOGS altogether to keep my head from exploding every year and to eliminate myself from any future controversies regarding partiality, fairness, conflict of interest, and integrity.
#2 - Run TOGS in a way that ensures it is the contest I think it should be, judge it as fairly as I can and how I see fit based on the spirit of the rules and the spirit of TOGS, and stop worrying about whether my decisions satisfy the rules lawyers, the whiners, and the haters. I'll call this the "tough cookies if you don't like it" option.

I have always wanted everyone to like TOGS, have a great time, and feel like everything was to their liking and satisfaction, so initially the idea of just getting out of TOGS as a participant altogether sounded like the best idea. That wouldn't alienate anyone and would be the selfless thing to do, putting my personal needs aside to do the right thing for the TOGS. But the idea of losing something that I enjoy so much, that my friends enjoy so much, something that is so great for my home arena and is a great event in total, just because of other people and their expectations, their gamesmanship, their complaining and paranoia, and their conflicting views of how things ought to be was just something that I could not accept.

Not wanting to institute the "tough cookies you if you don't like it" policy immediately since people are already invested with time and money into this TOGS, I chose to combine the two approaches by bowing out of this current TOGS with my partner, while instituting a new way of doing things for the future. So, starting with TOGS VII, I have decided that I was going to take primary control and responsibility for each TOGS and no longer will be doing anything or making any decisions based on other people's expectations about how things should be. I will do what I think is best for TOGS and what is fair IN MY JUDGEMENT, and--while I sincerely hope everyone is happy with those decisions--I will no longer care or let it affect my decisions as I cannot control other people's perceptions, attitudes, and feelings.

I am perfectly content having made that decision to pull out of this TOGS and would be more than happy not to participate in the rest of this TOGS, except to help administer it. However, I did not realize the impact this decision may have on the other players as well as on the TOGS overall, and damaging the TOGS long-term or ruining the enjoyment for the other players is exactly the opposite of what I have worked at for more than a decade. Therefore, (and much to my distaste after already having decided to quit) Soultaker and I have reversed course (again, trying to do the right thing for TOGS) and will be staying in the contest, albeit reluctantly and a bit half-heartedly on my part. I apologize for all of that and had I known this is where we'd end up, we would not have quit in the first place and spared everyone even more unnecessary drama.

There is much more that I want to say and probably will on this topic. Sorry for the long-ass post.

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Sentinel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

In an effort to be kind to the forum formatting and to people's eyes, if you want to rebut or reply to my post above, please try not to quote the entire thing in your response. Either submit a new post or at least cut out everything except what you feel is pertinent to your reply.

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Rillion
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:48 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:
... the basis of what the TOGS was created for. And that purpose is for the FUN of everyone in Aradi, to make the arena more enjoyable, to give the creative people there and incentive to write in the newsletter, and mess with their friends. And also the competition of fighting good managers and people that you respect.


I am glad that you guys are staying for if you were to have pulled out it would have gone against the vary basis of what you said TOGS was created for.
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Slugbait
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm glad you are staying. Smile Good call.

After all, Wayne and my entire plan was to beat on you and Craig every turn.
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:17 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:
In an effort to be kind to the forum formatting and to people's eyes, if you want to rebut or reply to my post above, please try not to quote the entire thing in your response. Either submit a new post or at least cut out everything except what you feel is pertinent to your reply.


No rebuttal here. Smile

Glad you stayed. Truly glad. Laughing

You made the right choice for TOGS itself. Thanks. We would hate to see what would have happened had you not. Cool

Don't think this gets you out of the razz fire, pal. Razz

Get rid of your half-heart - and find the gusto! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

_________________
Ye Old Consortium Scribe & Crapmaster 2013, Crapgiver 2014
997 ADM graduates (with 40+ manager IDs) including 105K+ fights and 68K+ wins plus 4 teams with 1000+ wins (Animal Farm DM11 @1514*; Bulldogs DM11 @ 1456; Lenpros DM30 @ 1420; Fandils @ 1330
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Darque
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:
#2 - Run TOGS in a way that ensures it is the contest I think it should be, judge it as fairly as I can and how I see fit based on the spirit of the rules and the spirit of TOGS, and stop worrying about whether my decisions satisfy the rules lawyers, the whiners, and the haters. I'll call this the "tough cookies if you don't like it" option.


Glad you have chosen this as an option. When it comes to contests in the world of DM, you have to take on this mentality or people will try to run all over you and other participants in a contest.

Quote:
Therefore, (and much to my distaste after already having decided to quit) Soultaker and I have reversed course (again, trying to do the right thing for TOGS) and will be staying in the contest, albeit reluctantly and a bit half-heartedly on my part.


I am glad you and Craig are staying. I am sad though that you feel the way you do, and I can only hope the joy of TOGS comes back to you as this one progresses.

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DeGotti
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Cheaters! Laughing Laughing Laughing

Hehehe

Scott
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Soultaker69
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:48 am Reply with quoteBack to top

DeGotti wrote:
Cheaters! Laughing Laughing Laughing

Hehehe

Scott




Damn I snorted my coffee. I have tears in my eyes.

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Soultaker
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Just a player that hasn't quit the game and come back. Maybe that is why I don't have all the answers to the problems in the game.
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SwineTiger
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel - Thanks for the post. Now all you have to do is cut and paste it into a word doc and your next three spotlights are written. Well played, well played, indeed.
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Rillion
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

SwineTiger wrote:
Sentinel - Thanks for the post. Now all you have to do is cut and paste it into a word doc and your next three spotlights are written. Well played, well played, indeed.


Fortunately it would no longer qualify since it wouldn't be original anymore.
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Darque
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Rillion wrote:
SwineTiger wrote:
Sentinel - Thanks for the post. Now all you have to do is cut and paste it into a word doc and your next three spotlights are written. Well played, well played, indeed.


Fortunately it would no longer qualify since it wouldn't be original anymore.


When was the last time something was original in TOGS? Or, do we count such great past works as Dude, Where's my Scrod? and Goldi-Hammer and the Three Megas as original?

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