Poll-- Will you continue playing this game

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:17 pm

drdaddy wrote:

Maybe I am the lone dissenting voice, but I don't see myself continuing to play for that much longer if changes aren't made. Things are just too out of whack. Newbies (and people who have been gone a long time) don't stand a chance in pretty much any arena or tourney. I started way back in 84 or so, played until around 89 (when everyone was learning and experimenting) then quit, then came back for a few years around 95 (grand-master types were starting to dominate), then quit and I am now back as of 6 months or so ago (everyone seems to be an expert and the challenge just isn't there for me anymore). TOGS has really killed my interest in the game for my return team.

The all basher arena is currently fun b/c everyone started relatively even, are boxed into a single style, and are forced to get creative but will probably get dull once people start sandbagging with guys fighting in tourneys. I love to see an absolutely no tournament warriors rule for that arena. But that probably won't fly.

I would be much more interested if significant changes were made that made EVERYONE rethink how they design and play warriors. I would love to see new classes of warriors and new weapons. I have about 100 more ideas that would never happen for many reasons. Again, I am not holding my breath. So, long way to say I doubt I will be playing in a year. Maybe the Stomping Grounds until it gets like the other arenas.

Bummer to hear, but an honest opinion.

Two quick thoughts for you.

1. To echo Swinetiger, consider hooking up with some other managers. There are a lot of us "unaffiliated types" out there if you are interested in just chatting and tossing ideas around. The megas want to keep people in the game and have always been friendly.
2. Have you thought about the two no-tourney arenas? You still have to deal with skilled managers, but there are certainly no sandbaggers. I'd be happy to welcome you into Shadowspire.

Good luck for as long as you enjoy the game.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:24 pm

drdaddy wrote:

Maybe I am the lone dissenting voice, but I don't see myself continuing to play for that much longer if changes aren't made.

Probably not alone, but just from forum counts in the minority.

Quote:

Things are just too out of whack. Newbies (and people who have been gone a long time) don't stand a chance in pretty much any arena or tourney.

That is a blanket statement. Yes there are some aspects of the game that are out of whack, but I don't see how being new and/or returning puts you at an unsurmountable disadvantage in the arena or in the lower tourneys for that matter.

Basic DM isn't broken. Why should a newbie or player who has been gone for 20+ years come in and automatically dominate? I sucked it up my first 2 years playing, but I'm confident I can hang with most anyone in an arena now.

If you don't like people fighting their tournament warriors in the arena, then the simple solution to that is to join one of the no tournament arenas.

Quote:

I started way back in 84 or so, played until around 89 (when everyone was learning and experimenting) then quit, then came back for a few years around 95 (grand-master types were starting to dominate), then quit and I am now back as of 6 months or so ago (everyone seems to be an expert and the challenge just isn't there for me anymore).

I don't understand. Are you unhappy with the game because people have figured out some things and know how to play?

Quote:

TOGS has really killed my interest in the game for my return team.

Totally understand this one. Kinda hard to be active in your return arena when there is a contest going.

Quote:

I would be much more interested if significant changes were made that made EVERYONE rethink how they design and play warriors. I would love to see new classes of warriors and new weapons.

New weapons I can see as feasible, but how many more fighting styles are there left to make? The 10 that have been the standard are pretty inclusive.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:38 pm

drdaddy wrote:

The all basher arena...will probably get dull once people start sandbagging with guys fighting in tourneys.

One thing I forgot to add - it's okay for you to tournify your arena warriors too! The next F2F is in July, so each of your guys will have 3 fights under their belt and be near the top of their class. As a result, you won't even miss an arena turn. Even if you don't attend the F2F (I never have), you can still mail in your strats and hope for the best (I've TV'd this way). At the very least, you'll still gain some extra FE. I enter every tourney regardless if I'm timed for it or not (even though I do try and time all my participants) and I always come away better than before. The beauty of the basher arena is that everyone is starting out with the same FE so you have an opportunity to grow your warriors at the same pace as everyone else if take advantage of these tourney opportunities.

SwineTiger

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:39 pm

[quote="drdaddy"]Newbies (and people who have been gone a long time) don't stand a chance in pretty much any arena or tourney. I started way back in 84 or so, played until around 89 (when everyone was learning and experimenting) then quit, then came back for a few years around 95 (grand-master types were starting to dominate), then quit and I am now back as of 6 months or so ago (everyone seems to be an expert and the challenge just isn't there for me anymore).

quote]

I wanted to add one more comment on this one because your experience very closely matches my own. I played from '85 through '91. I then dropped out and didn't return until 2 years ago. Certainly I was at a disadvantage when I returned, but most of the game is the same as when I left it - my hard learned lessons from the old days still apply. Plus, it is amazing how much information the number crunchers have made available to the rest of us. I make no claims to being one of the best managers in the game, but I do feel that I can compete with them. If I qualify as a newbie (or did when I first came back) then my record in basic arenas would not support your claim that we have no chance.

My point is not that your wrong, experience certainly does have its advantages. Rather I want to stress that being competitive is not a long distance away. Nor does being competitive require that you participate in tournaments, although that can help (both records and the learning curve.)

Good luck.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:44 am

drdaddy wrote:

Maybe I am the lone dissenting voice, but I don't see myself continuing to play for that much longer if changes aren't made. Things are just too out of whack. Newbies (and people who have been gone a long time) don't stand a chance in pretty much any arena or tourney. I started way back in 84 or so, played until around 89 (when everyone was learning and experimenting) then quit, then came back for a few years around 95 (grand-master types were starting to dominate), then quit and I am now back as of 6 months or so ago (everyone seems to be an expert and the challenge just isn't there for me anymore). TOGS has really killed my interest in the game for my return team.

The all basher arena is currently fun b/c everyone started relatively even, are boxed into a single style, and are forced to get creative but will probably get dull once people start sandbagging with guys fighting in tourneys. I love to see an absolutely no tournament warriors rule for that arena. But that probably won't fly.

I would be much more interested if significant changes were made that made EVERYONE rethink how they design and play warriors. I would love to see new classes of warriors and new weapons. I have about 100 more ideas that would never happen for many reasons. Again, I am not holding my breath. So, long way to say I doubt I will be playing in a year. Maybe the Stomping Grounds until it gets like the other arenas.

Sorry to hear this.

Probably more managers than we know get frustrated with the difficulty and intense acquired skill/knowledge needed to compete at the highest levels. It is not easy.

Arenas are "easier" than tournaments. Certain events are easier/more fun. (e.g basher arena) Most of us would not compete if it were not for the friendships and associations we have acquired in the game. We hope you hang with it as you will get better and better.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:43 am

Personally, for me to compete at the level I'd like, I'd need to spend more money and time than I have. Hence why I'm reticent about playing again, b/c like any crack addict, I'd want more, to compete at the higher level I know I could do well at. I guess I'll have to get used to being "a little guy".

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:56 am

Adie wrote:

Personally, for me to compete at the level I'd like, I'd need to spend more money and time than I have. Hence why I'm reticent about playing again, b/c like any crack addict, I'd want more, to compete at the higher level I know I could do well at. I guess I'll have to get used to being "a little guy".

It is not so bad, but I think Sentinel has "little guy" copy-righted.

I would think as a role-player that you would shift well into a small spender role. It was difficult for me to re-organize how much money I spent on this game when I got married and will probably have to do it again in the future with a kid. But, I was surprised at how much I enjoy the game on this level.

I know that style of play is just like D2 and not for everyone. However, I still think that one can have moderate success and build a decent reputation as a micro-manager.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:13 am

I see the main difference between a mega and micro manager being how much they invest in RUs to find the perfect warrior/team. However, the micro manager can obtain the same success, just with a little more patience. For example, for one of my successful teams I bought only 4 RUs before settling on one that had three above average guys. Over time, I DA'd or lost guys in battle that enabled me to make all 5 guys decent. Is it a TC capable team? Probably not, but 4 out of 5 could be TVs.

The point is that you don't need to empty the bank to have success in the game, but you do need to spend a little more upfront to get off on the right foot - and when you have a 21 witter, talk to some vets about how to best design and run them if you're unsure. These simple steps can make all the difference in how much you enjoy the game. At least it has for me.

SwineTiger

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:44 pm

Every time I have had to quit playing it was because of money issues. (Bought a house, needed a new car or changed jobs) The only time when money wasn't an issue was when I came back in Aug of 2001. The problem then was anthrax tainted letters after 9/11, which totally screwed up the postal system in Northern VA for months. After a month of not being able to get any mail in or out too RSI I gave up.

During all the time I wasn't able to play I kept in touch with Soultaker atleast once a year and he told me about the changes in the game, especially tourneys. So when I finally came back in Sept/Oct of 2004 I figured I would struggle in tourneys, but until you are actually participating in them you have no way of realizing just how big a change it is.

What warriors worked for me before in Basic tourneys didn't work anymore. ADM and Eligibles, where I would get atleast 1 TV a tourney. Now I am lucky if I have one warrior last 5 rounds.

So over the past 2 years I have been adjusting my warrior design and raised my requirements a bit for what is a good basic tourney warrior and I am becoming competitive again. Just talking with guys at the FtF in Atlanta last year helped alot.

Now AMD+ is another story. I have gone from fighting 10-12 warriors a tourney to what will now be 4-5 and I am almost to the point of giving up on the ADM+ classes altogether.

The hardest part by far since my return has been changing my mindset on not becoming attached to tourney warriors. Even though you have one that is a good design and has decent physicals and bonuses, if they aren't learning the correct skills you have to let them go or you are just wasting time and money.

Luckily thier has been little change in the basic arenas, which keeps me playing. It's just a shame having to retire almost all your warriors when they get invited into ADM.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:58 pm

I'm for any changes that help the game run smoother, anything that makes it easier for lazy/busy people like me.

However, nerfing a style because of what tricks it can pull off, I don't care much for. Make parry as strong as it should be in Primus and problem solved in my opinion.

Believe it or not, I lost interest in the game for years because of the Primus/Gateway merger. Change affects many people in different ways. These days I care much less for advanced, even less for setting up warriors past Initiates, and 1 turn a month of regular basic is about all I can handle, but tournaments still very much excite me so I'm stuck in the 'easy to enter' classes which are at least for now free of being touched. Why should I care about developing something if it's environment is just going to be changed? That's alot of wasted time.

As long as there are two weekends that I can drink, compete in an environment with mostly adults, and get far far away from my work I'll be playing in some fashion.

Expert Poster Joined: Jun 08, 2008 Posts: 87

Okay. I am currently on hiatus from the game. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to return to the game. I know I suck at it, but I still like the banter and thrill of a potential win. Itdoes take a small bite out of the budget, but a bite nonetheless.

That's one element in my return decision. I must admit, I really got kind of bummed about the game seeing everyone drop out of the arena just before a tourney. Seems like that is common practice for some reason. Got put against a few too many persistant beggars and such. Can't afford to throw cash at a computer telling me I win against a non-player. Would rather pay to lose to a human player.

I'm sure I will return, but the game sure has lost a lot of its charisma since a few years back. Is there any kind of recruitment process for fresh blood? I see 45+ pages of players on the Members List. Where are all of these people? Video games or not, there HAS to be a big enough geek & dork base out there to revitalize this game. BTW... I include myself in both of those groups... and proud of it.

Does RSI have an info booth at any of the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book/gaming conventions? Wouldn't cost much to do so and the payback should be many fold. Has there ever been any thought of having one of the FTFs coincide with a major convention to introduce the game to folks by letting them sit in and watch the process or letting them have one freebie fighter? I used to go to Dr. Who conventions in years past and I know there are TONS of folks out there just begging for a more hands on strategic fantasy game. I would think plenty of us guys would be happy to man a booth at a nearby con or be training wheels to a newbie testing the tourney training grounds.

Good example... I ordered pizza last week. The twenty-something delivery guy noticed my medieval decor and asked if I play Dungeons & Dragons. I was taken aback. Didn't realize the game was still out there drawing players. If it is, DuelMASTERS can. This "Duel II" downgrade sucks IMHO. I told him about the game, but didn't have any good info to pass on to him about the game. I'll hand him some strategy sheets and some of my fights when next he brings me pizza.

I guess what I am getting at is we old schoolers are fun to battle with and sling mud at, but does RSI want the game to grow or die? It just feels stagnant. Some good old fashioned salesmanship is needed. Have they ever offered any incentives to new players like "First Turn Free"?

Since the 80's, I've been in and out of the game a few times, but it just feels like it is in a coma. Sunset especially so... unless all other arenas are in the same slump. Also feels more like playing the system instead of playing the game these days. The passion for the game itself... ? Gotta admit, I do like seeing those personals being used more.

Now, I'm going to add something that got me jumped on before, but I hope I say it better or more palitable this time. I only ask you to consider why you are quick to dismiss it before you dismiss it this time.

Yes... You (we) veterans are primarily quick to offer help to newbies. Yes... There are LOTS of tips for how to play on the web. Yes... Newbies are routed to specific training arenas. One thing I know about the majority of us is that we are stubborn. If we weren't, we would not have lasted in the game as much as we have. Consider the newbies being just as stubborn and headstrong... or not. If they are as stubborn, they will want to figure the game out on their own and make their own way. Problem there is that they are against decades seasoned players and by the time they figure out how to have a decent win-loss record, their record is already beneath starting even. This will turn many newbies away. If the newbie isn't that stubborn sort, they won't last long enough to figure the game out in the first place. Those newbies are lost. If they are willing to accept help, the advice given is often conflicting and overwhelming. Anothr big turn-off.

Way back, it felt like we were all starting even with an equal chance of achieving success. Surely you can see the massive disadvantage the newbie has in this game. Why would they stick around?

My suggestions consist of eliminating the dark arena, eliminating any tourney bonuses, and eliminating ordering extra roll-ups. Take what you get. Play what you get. Gain experience unilaterally. The more seasoned warrior IS the better warrior instead of the more seasoned manager HAS all of the better warriors. Fair. Fair. Fair. What about prizes you say? Free turns. No better prize than money. Right? There would still be plenty of variability to keep the game interesting and everyone would have the exact same tools to build a successful team. Would certainly make the game considerably easier for a newbie to conquer.

Offering a feeling of being a part of something instead of just a participant in the game would also be more welcoming. Vets diplo-ing newbies to welcome them to the game and offer contact info for future communications as well as a welcome in the Spy Report and personals might do wonders for recruitment and retention.

For those offering "things ae just fine the way they are" responses to the concerns raised by others, I would suggest that things might be fine the way the are FOR YOU, but that doesn't mean they are fine for the game. Step outside your comfort zone atop the rankings and take a look around through others' eyes.

I remember this game being soooo much more fun and so much less status dominated. I would like to play that game again.

Sorry for the epic. Just wanted to express my concerns and thoughts for the game I've loved.

The Cap'n

_________________
It's not the size of the blade that matters, but the power of the thrust.

Expert Poster Joined: Apr 14, 2008 Posts: 63

Well I have put some thought into this since coming back a couple of months ago and want to say afew things concerning a game I fell in love with as a teenager. I will never forget my first turn.... I had just sent off my very first team, (Guardians) I was placed in the BEST arena to this day, (although it has seen better days) Zensu, I think I went 1-4 that turn but I enjoyed each and EVERY fight I read. I was hooked from that point on. My team setup was horrible and it didn't matter.... I loved reading the results over and over again... (still do to this day! Laughing

) I believe it was turn 76 or so in Zensu. I played off and on then... even got afew friends involved in it. I had moved away and lost track of it for awhile.... moved back to Virginia in 97' when my Mother had passed away, and I had been going through some of my old stuff and came across some of my ol' DM stuff. Played a few turns again, realized I missed it, but due to a messed up relationship, stopped playing again. It has taken me some time to make a decision to play again or not, but I am here and will remain for as long as the game is around. NO you don't have to be a mega-manager to be successful in the game. If I could spend the money to run a team in every arena, I would! But I wouldn't do it to be successful or to try and have an edge on other players. I would do it because I would just love to read and EXPERIENCE ALL OF THOSE FIGHTS! Very Happy

I hear all this talk about Aimers being too dominate in the high end game, well I remember people complaining when Donotello ( a parry-lunge ) dominating primus tournies and such. I believe that any and all of us playing this game have the means to create the next big thing. All you have to do is be creative.... that is the joy of Duel2 to me. Anyone can follow a template on designing a great warrior, but if you get hosed in skills and/or faves then you go on to the next one.... But when you do get that next big thing( and I promise that IT WILL happen with alittle patiance, thought, AND of course luck!) Then everyone will be talking about how YOUR warrior is dominating the game and how changes should be made. So I believe the game is fine how it is and the tools are in front of us to 'change' things now. This is just my thoughts on the matter... oh and one more thing.... the one thing I really want most in Duel2, is to finally go to a ftf someday so I can meet each and everyone of you that make this such a great experiance in my life. The game may not last forever (and I still pray to the RU Gods Laughing

) but memories last a lifetime!

Twig

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:41 pm

Great thoughts guys and thanks for sharing them.

I keep noticing a continuing theme thru most of the posts from returning players. Most seem to be disenfranchised by the new dominant roll of the tourney in game play.

I personally have a love/hate relationship with tournaments myself. However, I decided that I would not let that ruin what I do enjoy about the game and that is Basic DM.

I would suggest to both Twig and Capt. Billy (invitation is open to all) to give DM-81 a try. We are trying to bring back that old school feel in there. You may not get a diplo (or tell me your team and I'll happily trade them back and forth with you), but some of the old feelings can rush up on you.

We have an active group of managers in there and you do not have to worry about teams cutting out before the tourney. Personal ads are pretty regular, along with DM columns, smack talk, and team spotlights.

We can't bring back the glory days, but we can attempt to create some new ones.

Edit: I forgot to mention just in case you did not know it--DM 81 is a no-tourney arena. Tourney participation is not allowed (this includes Dead tourneys) and warriors are not allowed to be prize-modified. It is DM in its simplest form. We have hopes of one day having a no-tourney ADM arena too.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Jul 18, 2006 Posts: 1170

Darque is right on the money. I played in Sunset for a short stint just over a year ago, but didn't feel the magic I remembered from playing in the 80's in Zensu (Twig what team were you? I ran the Renegades). I decided to give Shadowspire a try before quiting again. 37 turns later I still absolutely love the arena. It has more active managers, no tourney warriors, plenty of PA's, and a good bit of the magic I remembered from the past. I can't emphasis enough.....give Shadowspire a try if you are looking for an old school arena. You won't be disappointed.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:27 pm

Quick question: which arenas are the non-tourney ones?