WALL OF STEEL

Expert Poster Joined: Jun 08, 2008 Posts: 87

IN YOUR OPINION...

What attributes make a good one?
What weapons work best?
What tactics are most effective?
What rhythm best suits them?
What are your thoughts on this style in general?

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Sep 13, 2006 Posts: 1020

One of my favorite styles, which I believe is a bit under utilized. A Good WS is like most warriors with a decent wit will combo. Now, I believe WS's need WL more than any other attribute.

ST/CN in the 9-11 range with a combine value of 20 is sufficient

SZ meh

WT important, but not as important as WL

WL 21 is best,

SP low is fine

DF my newer 21 WL 21 DF 13 WT guy is cleaning up, I think DF must increase as WT decreases, simply to offset you skill base.

Lastly, WSs are tricky for a few reasons. First they do not like to learn rip. This often caches up to them by the time they hit champs; therefore, pray like hell they learn it. A way to offset this is to jack up offensive effort. It is perfect, but it can help.

Oh and WSs tend to learn quite well with lower wits compared to many classes.

Well gotta go treat a patient, chat at you later

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:16 am

Gads - that is quite the list of new threads you started. I'm not sure such an open ended invite will work, but what the heck.

Let me start with a prediction. . . I predict we will get to hear heresy frm the mouth of Woody . . . somethng about low will . . . They work for him. I gotta try one sometime.

Grimm's comments are about right. I have never run a 21 deftness waste before. That would be interesting. You can also crank up the con on them. Setups that might make a good scum will also make a good waste in many cases, although you need to be careful about getting too dumb. But I have had good luck with 11 wit wastes, not that I would call that ideal by any stretch. You want to be slow. Points are needed elsewhere.

I like this style a lot. I like warriors who combine offense and defense and this one does it. That is one reason why scum setups will get made into wastes on my teams.

Weapons? Scimitar, duh. Ok, Broadsword and battleaxe are pretty good alternatives as well. Oh, and the great sword. Gotta love the greatsword. Just kidding. Experimented with one last turn. It broke.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:38 am

15-10-13-17(+2)-17-3-13(+2)

I have this one inactive in 25 and is 13-6-2. He really likes the BA W/off hand HA. I run him 5-4-5 P early and then up it to 7-3/2-7 by the third min and he does really well and he ripostes pretty good. The fact that he does TREM DMG sure helps end the fight quick when he does repost. The great thing about this guy is that when he confronts a deffensive guy he acts like a crazy striker but then when the defensive guy tries to ripost, he usually returns the favor, plus he lasts forever. I believe most of his loses are early on when I was training. I would have to go to my old roommates house an dig for the team. I haven't fought them since '92. Most of my wastes tend to bash with thier shield so I gave them an off hand weapon and the clean up with it. I run my OTP very similar except I lower the OE and increase the AL in the start. Off hand weapons are a big thing with alot of my wastes and OTP.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Sep 13, 2006 Posts: 1020

Huge advice, it is not wise to burn stats like this. Some do it, but I still advise against it. Train skills, training stats 2-3 times to hit break points will cause you a few issues later on.

Yeah yeah Consort I know you do it, but like your parents said like watching naughty films, it is wrong. I will try to ellaborate more later.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:39 am

CaptBilly wrote:

IN YOUR OPINION...

What attributes make a good one?
What weapons work best?
What tactics are most effective?
What rhythm best suits them?
What are your thoughts on this style in general?

I think this is a great style, but unfortunately, unless it is a very well designed + knacky WoS, it will see its returns diminish as it gets higher in FE, and its parry can no longer stand up to the massive attack LU/SL.

Stats:

STR/CON - i like my wastes to be burly. you can get away with 11/11, but the burlier the better. i also like my wastes to be able to do at least good damage (so factor that in to your waste's sz). also nice to be able to tank it up in APA/F with ??/ME-LG, but not necessary.

SZ - the smaller the better in general, as more for your other stats and it'll help your parry/def. but again, i do like to be able to do at least gd damage.

WT - as others here mentioned, i've been surprised at some of learns my 13 witters have been able to make. i'd go as low as 13 (11 if everything else was exceptional), and the higher the better, but not necessary.

WL - 21 here if at all possible. 17 at the minimum.

SP - as low as possible.

DF - 11 minimum, which will be fine if you have all your other stats. anything more is gravy.

Weapons / Armor - For armor, i tend to like to brick my wastes out, so if you can do APA-APM/F, i say do it. At the minimum i like to suit up in ASm/F. For weapons, wastes get to use some of the best, so try those out first, primarily: SC/BS/BA. Use your offhand shield v. offensives

Strats - The main thing to remember w/wastes is unless your very lucky and get riposte fav learn, you will learn no riposte, so v. offensives at least you will have to get by on your sponginess and par/def (primarily par). I generally find a strat around 4-2-x works as a rough strat, and then i'll tweak that depending on the circumstances. I generally use P tactic either in min. 1 or desp, and ive been able to use the R tactic sometimes as well, so give that a shot. I find I don't have to turn up the numbers too high to get them to go on the offensive, especially if they've learned attack skills. Just upping your OE a little should do the trick, especially in minutes 3+ v. offensives when they tend to get tired and slow down. Vs. scum i would obviously ditch the armor and do something like a 4/5-1-x and use whichever weapon u crit w/best (minus the shield again, obviously). SC preferably.

I think this is a great style in basic, and can wreak havok particularly on STs. The higher you get tho, as I mentioned, and the truly skilled offensives 9 out of 10 will rip you to shreds, especially the WoS-bane SLs. There's nothing worse than being 7-2 in a tournament, and finding out your 10th fight is vs. a SL.

Good luck!

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:56 am

Grimm wrote:

Huge advice, it is not wise to burn stats like this. Some do it, but I still advise against it. Train skills, training stats 2-3 times to hit break points will cause you a few issues later on.

Yeah yeah Consort I know you do it, but like your parents said like watching naughty films, it is wrong. I will try to ellaborate more later.

Is that for future ADM warriors only or as a general rule for all. I don't really fight in ADM, all my warriors are just standard arena only.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:03 am

[quote="nuln"]

CaptBilly wrote:

I think this is a great style in basic, and can wreak havok particularly on STs. The higher you get tho, as I mentioned, and the truly skilled offensives 9 out of 10 will rip you to shreds, especially the WoS-bane SLs. There's nothing worse than being 7-2 in a tournament, and finding out your 10th fight is vs. a SL.

Good luck!

Wait . . . slashers can make it to round 10 in a tournament??!!! Why didn't someone tell me that before! Wink

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:16 am

gentleben wrote:

Grimm wrote:

Huge advice, it is not wise to burn stats like this. Some do it, but I still advise against it. Train skills, training stats 2-3 times to hit break points will cause you a few issues later on.

Yeah yeah Consort I know you do it, but like your parents said like watching naughty films, it is wrong. I will try to ellaborate more later.

Is that for future ADM warriors only or as a general rule for all. I don't really fight in ADM, all my warriors are just standard arena only.

Grimm can respond as well, but I would say the following:

1. Check out the Duetorial Swinetiger has set up and look at burning. It explains a lot.

Primarily burns are a problem only in AD. They only become a problem when you are beginning to bump into the 20 skill limit. So in basic they usually are not a problem. But . . .
*What makes a great long term AD warrior really isn't the original set-up since everyone will presumably end up at 25-25-x-25-25-25-25. What makes or breaks a warrior will be their bonuses, favorites or simply being "knacky." The warrior that looked very blaw when you set him up might actually turn out to be the super bonused one with the great future. When you burn a warrior in basic you really don't know what your burning. (Based on commentary by others, not personal experience.)
*Of course, you can get those skills back in Primus, but you will be carrying that burden for a long time to get there.
*Stat trains always have an opportunity cost. If you are burning a stat you are not training skills. For example, You burned deftenss from 11 to 13. How many turns did that take you? 2 at a minimum, but that second train only has a 42.5% chance, so quite possibly more. For what? 4 skills. No new weapons or improved physicals. Had you trained skills with a 15 (or 17) wit would you have learned 4 or more skills? Without the long term drain? Then why do it? The payoff in skills, future improved learning (wit) or physicals has to outweigh significantly the skills you are losing by not training skills. Also, don't forget that when training skills those learns are likely to be more focused in areas that help your warrior while stat training usually generates 1 skill in multiple areas. When looking at what helps a warrior - does gaining a parry skill really do your striker any good?

Ok, that said - I do burn. Not with everyone. I prefer not to do so. But when I get the right set-up I am more than willing to do so. I don't play in AD much at all so it doesn't bother me as much. Plus in contests or such where all that matters are a certain # of fights in basic, I will do whatever maximizes short-term results - which MIGHT be burning. But the truth is, I'd like to leave my options open, so if I can get a good warrior without burns, that is what I will do.

When burning I need a good reason to do so, and usually try to make sure that I only need one train to hit whatever break points I am aiming for. Training twice takes too long unless you are dealing with a dunce.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Sep 13, 2006 Posts: 1020

General rule, but let me explain better. First, some warriors can not be designed to reach breakpoints, while I believe this doesnt happen that often, it does happen. for example a 14 wl to 20wl on a scum.

The exception first,
Lets use as an example two warriros 15 21 8 5 20 4 11 (if my math works out) and 11 14 8 15 20 5 11 with initial rollups that start at 14 wl and lets say 5 and 9 wt respectively and 9 df for both. Now, first these are 2 totally different warriors, even though they are both TPs, they are quite different in how they can be run and how to run them up the charts.

To begin, lets consider the design, burning the 20 wl to 21 give you quite a few skills, that yes can be learned back in primus. So no longer are we at the days of complete loss, mind you neither will likely get there.

First, Guy number 2 : if I take those 3 extra points above 17wl(last skill cut off) I can place them elsewhere to earn some skills and maybe increase attributes such as damage. Now the way I work I try to max skills so I would likely up my deftness on guy number 2, say 13 and then add some to str or con, leaving wl at 17. You start with a higher initial skill level, but the burn skill grab of 10 is not there. A difference of about 6 (let's say +6) skills in favor of the burn. But the turn it takes to train WL 20 to 21 is a potential skill learning turn, so in all probability less than 6.

Why is this important, or is it? It comes down to cut offs in a way. Every time you raise a stat it is like 2 skills when cut offs are determined. So the WL increase 20 to 21 counts 2 towards your total number. It is better to consider this a negative, because you always want it to be lower, well almost always. So lets say -2, now to increase df 11 to 13 that is 4 skill points toward cut off, so -4. The total -6, now take that away from the +6 burn and you have 0 and you lost a turn to train skills. Complicated, no?

What about the WL give up bonus or endurance you say, ahh I sort of agree with you with keeping it at 20 for that reason only, but not eatting up the skill burn.

Ok, I dont care about ADM you say, we understand that is for some; however, what advantage is it to mess guys up so that they can never do anything in ADM. This brings us to guy 1 the scum.

Training his wl to 21 from 20. This guy is going to be a blast or a pain depending how you see it in regular dm. But he is dumb dumb dumb, like a red headed kid stick a steel utensil in an electrical socket. For him to learn 10 skills that he would get from the burn may take a year in a slow arena. Versus 1 month. To someone who buys extended warranties this is huge. So I recommend burn him like mad if you like.

I hope this helps, it isnt easy to put in words, but it is kind of my rationale. Fun fun, good luck.

Oh I do have a few other reasons to suggest burns, but I cant give away everything.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:54 am

Perhaps this "while ago" article explains our thoughts .......

The CONSORTIUM WASTE

Not everything in DM needs to be defined by the parameters and expectations of today’s game – godlings, sandbaggers, tournaments, life-changing prizes, +20 warriors, etc, etc. Many yet thrive on arena play, and for many years The Consortium was a presence in 30+ active arenas. The record of over 400 warriors graduated is not likely to be bested in our DM lifetimes.

You may know of The Consortium for one or many reasons:
• A different manager and theme in every arena with many personals, DM columns, and spotlights.
• Helping many rookies and newcomers to understand and prosper in the game.
• Running every rollup, with virtually no DM action.
• 20+ arenas with .600+ W/L record, many with 500+ wins, and some nearing 1000.
• No down challenging, little killing, and great respect for opponents.
• Well known managers like – Pretty Pandora, Crazy Creepster, Fandil The Wise, Kennelworth, Ace, Senator Bob Dole, Mr. T, Lenpro, Mino, JD Rockefeller, Snuffy, Oz, Sweetie-Pie, Midas, Uncle Sam, Oremaster, and many more.
• 400+ warriors graduated to ADM, with over 30,000 wins in the game

One major factor in all the success was the running of mid-level, mediocre warriors, the most important of which was “The Consortium Waste”. How would you like to have 9 warriors (these are only examples of many more) provide a record of 175-48-2? No, not “scum’ as by far the majority of wins were by doing damage. These same nine below provided 16 DM crowns, 4 TVs, and a 98-73-1 tournament record. The contributions are from DM 20 (Animal Farm – Mino), DM 40 (Demons Of Death – Pretty Pandora), DM46 (Fandils – Fandil The Wise), DM47 (Land Of Oz – Oz), and DM60 (The Crazy Creeps – Creepster).

The data provided is “known starting info” supplemented by “graduation info”.

WINGED MONKEY (47-1773) 11-14-9-15-17-5-13 WS 18-2-0 record
Good endure; normal dmg; +3 att/-1 par; 2TV 22-12-0 tourney
Great axe/mod/low

SHAHAG (46-1556) 11-14-11-15-17-5-11 WS 18-2-0 record
Good endure; good dmg; mode; 4DM crowns; 1TV 27-14-2 tourney
Scimitar/Low/Very low

AMBER APE (20-2735) 11-15-10-17-15-4-12 WS 20-4-0 record
Good endure; good dmg; +4 att/-3 par; 4 DM crowns 2-3 0 tourney
Battle axe/high/low

WINKIE (47-3210) 11-14-14-14-15-4-12 WS 17-3-0 record
Good endure; great dmg (+); mode; 1TV 16-7-1 tourney
Greatsword/very high/very low

SAINT LUCIFER (60-2194) 16-15-5-17-15-5-11 WS 20-5-0 record
Good endure; normal dmg; +3att; 11-9-0 tourney
Scimitar/mod/low

HEATHER HIPPO (20-3229) 11-13-14-15-15-5-11 WS 17-5-0 record
Normal endure; good dmg; -2 att/+4 par; 4 DM crowns 2-6-0 tourney
Morning star/mod/very low

GREY GRIFFON (20-1653) 11-13-12-15-15-5-13- WS 25-9-0 record
Normal endure; great dmg (+); mode 11-12-0 tourney
Broad sword/high/very low

AVARICE (40-2675) 11-13-15-16-15-4-10 WS 18-8-0 record
Good endure; tremendous dmg (++); -1 att/-2 par; 2DM crowns 4-6-0 tourney
Scimitar/high/low

CHOCOLATE CRAB (20-1755) 11-12-14-14-15-5-13 WS 22-10-2 record
Normal endure; good dmg; mode; 2 DM crowns 3-6-0 tourney
Great axe/mod/low

These warriors and their managers made a very great contribution to making The Consortium what it was and is.

As a final note, great warriors can be made with 5-9 WL warriors – the opposite of The Consortium Waste. Perhaps that makes for another days presentation.

P.S. By the way, for those of you who think that this type of design is a “thing of the past”, please observe “Hourglass” in DM47 running this very moment (10-12-04) with a 12-1 record. The Consortium Waste is invaluable and timeless.

Brought to you by the many Consortium managers and scribes.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:57 am

Grimm wrote:

Huge advice, it is not wise to burn stats like this. Some do it, but I still advise against it. Train skills, training stats 2-3 times to hit break points will cause you a few issues later on.

Yeah yeah Consort I know you do it, but like your parents said like watching naughty films, it is wrong. I will try to ellaborate more later.

We do not train many stats on wastes at all.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:32 pm

Nomad wrote:

Let me start with a prediction. . . I predict we will get to hear heresy frm the mouth of Woody . . . somethng about low will . . . They work for him. I gotta try one sometime.

It is possible to make a WOS with a low will.

That is not the same thing as saying it is better to make a WOS with a low will.

Given the choice, I would prefer a high will on a WOS.
The RUGS don't always give that choice, and the other stats may tempt a different design.

Many of my design quirks come from a reluctance to use the DA.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to make crummy rollups work.

On balance, it seems to have been proven that, in the long run, you'll get a better team record by DAing non-optimal rollups and sticking to proven "winning" designs.

I'd rather watch paint dry.

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:10 pm

Woody wrote:

Nomad wrote:

Let me start with a prediction. . . I predict we will get to hear heresy frm the mouth of Woody . . . somethng about low will . . . They work for him. I gotta try one sometime.

It is possible to make a WOS with a low will.

That is not the same thing as saying it is better to make a WOS with a low will.

Given the choice, I would prefer a high will on a WOS.
The RUGS don't always give that choice, and the other stats may tempt a different design.

Many of my design quirks come from a reluctance to use the DA.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to make crummy rollups work.

On balance, it seems to have been proven that, in the long run, you'll get a better team record by DAing non-optimal rollups and sticking to proven "winning" designs.

I'd rather watch paint dry.

And your preference makes you a great manager to have in an arena. Not because you run middle grade stuff (although that helps! Very Happy

) but rather because you run interesting things - and off styles.

Actually, I can easily see a low will waste working, as long as the other numbers are in the right place. The question then is whether or not I would make that role-up a waste or some other style.

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:57 am

Nomad wrote:

Woody wrote:

Nomad wrote:

Let me start with a prediction. . . I predict we will get to hear heresy frm the mouth of Woody . . . somethng about low will . . . They work for him. I gotta try one sometime.

It is possible to make a WOS with a low will.

That is not the same thing as saying it is better to make a WOS with a low will.

Given the choice, I would prefer a high will on a WOS.
The RUGS don't always give that choice, and the other stats may tempt a different design.

Many of my design quirks come from a reluctance to use the DA.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to make crummy rollups work.

On balance, it seems to have been proven that, in the long run, you'll get a better team record by DAing non-optimal rollups and sticking to proven "winning" designs.

I'd rather watch paint dry.

And your preference makes you a great manager to have in an arena. Not because you run middle grade stuff (although that helps! Very Happy

) but rather because you run interesting things - and off styles.

Actually, I can easily see a low waste working, as long as the other numbers are in the right place. The question then is whether or not I would make that role-up a waste or some other style.

We, too, agree. We can see (and have made) low WL Wastes that work. It does present a problem for some as it is "out of norm". But designing and making them work such out-of-norms is one of the great "funs" of this game. We give a big hip-hip to all that do.

That said, nowadays, we tend to practice low-WL designs on other styles.