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Duel2 :: View topic - Bagged on...
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Adie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Since this topic hadn't a single post, thought I'd try to throw one in.

Why is it that Andorian, and anything/everything associated with it, gets bagged on by everybody else? Is it because Andorian is too nice? What's your opinion of Andorian, and why...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It seems like the andorians are like liberal left wing, community oriented gladiators who believe in honor, respect and a code of ethics. There are many others who believe that groupthink is for lame brains even when its groupthink for "good".
I personally think that the Andorians are worthy of my respect and I appreciate their being concientious about fair play. Delarquans will use any tactics or methods which I feel challenges me in different ways, I must be prepared for anything.
For those who are not looking to be tied to someone eles set of ethics or rules about trying to kill or trying not to kill, etc thats us free blades ! You will all find out about my style at the touch of many blades in the days and nights to come.

Respect to all,

Myrrdin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'd like to know the answer to that myself. I would suspect it has to do with the fact that when most of us think of gladitorial combat, we think of the Roman arena and the fact that virtually every duel ended in death. Add to that the fact that DM is a game of strategy and the object is to win, and it seems logically and philosophically incompatible to some to think of trying to win without using every available option a manager has at his disposal.

If I were to break things down stereotypically, I would say there are really two basic ways of playing Duelmasters. Of course, these would be the two large umbrella categories that many other subsets and subcategories fall under. In a purely stereotypical manner, I think it breaks down this way:

Delarquan managers believe in winning at all costs. They can and will use every strategic option open to them to maximize their ability to win. Although, from what I've seen, they tend to be this way only with each other and to those who try to tell them they're wrong for doing so.

Andorian managers tend to believe in fighting to win in an honorable fashion. They will not downchallenge unless provoked and believe in playing the game in a very "fair" way.

Basically, I like to think of it as a "kindler, gentler" George Bush (Senior) vs. George W. Wink

I won't comment on Free Blades because it really defies categorization, as far as I'm concerned. You have a pretty even mix of both ways of doing things. It more of a "Wild West" kind of feel where everyone kind of does their own thing. And, I have no idea what's up with Lirith Kai, so I won't comment on them.

Personally, I have no problem with either way of playing the game. I'll play my way, you play yours and we'll be fine. The problem comes when people try to tell one another how to play.

Sam
-The Sandman
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kayelbe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I really can't understand the political side at all.

When I started playing this game back in '85, there were no regions, at least like they are now. The goal was to become Duelmaster. Anyway you could. Back then, there were no rankings, just DM and everyone else.

I have teams in several arenas right now, and off the top of my head, I can't tell you the affiliation of most of them. I just don't care too much. If I were to pick a faction, I would probably be a Free Blade-type. I think the heart of the roleplaying is getting to the Isle, in order to become a protector. How you get there is by being the top of the arena heap.

To me, (and this is from a Roleplaying perspective, not necessarily a "real life" philosophy assumption), Andorians believe that anyone on the sands should be a Lord Protector, and therefore random killing for the sport of it is looked down upon, because those otherwise able warriors will not live long enough to get the call to the isle.

Delarqs hold to the principle (again, not an assumption of actual player ideals) that only the strongest should be a Protector, and if you get killed in the arena, you just weren't up to the eternal challenge.

Freeblade types, for lack of a better understanding, lie somewhere in the middle. Now that I think about it a little more, I can't understand the middle ground approach. Both of the extremes have merit to me. I guess that is the Freeblade philosophy.

Kevin/Kayel'be
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420madman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

here's the deal, you should go into every fight thinking your opponent is trying to kill you because in reality, he is. i definitely believe that down challenging is for punks but other than that, anything goes. i'm out to be champ and that means plowing through everyone in front of me. there's no need to give any consideration to lower ranked fighters. i'll worry about them if and when they become a threat. alliances can add a different aspect to the game but everyone obviously is going to be looking out for #1.

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Ghoti
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I see this in several ways. First, I think we SHOULD be fighting in and with regional rules.

Andorians get bagged on first and formost because they are vocal about how they want to play. After all the altenative is to play like everyone else. Seriously, to play as an Andorian, you have to have rule sets. Where to play/fight as most anywhere else you dont need rule sets. As Andorians WANT a set of rules and that kinda grates on the NO RULE guys.

To achieve an arena with rules, it has to be set up that way. The problem comes when you advert that ya got rules.. Wink Or when someone arrives without knowledge that a set of rules is in place for that arena.

Personally I think with thier being about 18 Delarq arenas, 18 freeblades arenas and only 13 Andorian arenas, thier needs to be rules among ourselves to allow the Andorian rule set in a few arenas. It is more a case of the NO rules guys allowing the folks that want rules some space.

Hehehe I can hear it now.. Delarq guy says "OK Yous wimps get deese 4 arenas .. Now shut the hell up or we gona take em away from ya.. !"

But to summerise... Naw I don't need to ..

Ghoti
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Sylvester
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

IMO, this is a simple question to answer.
Andorians typically = the good guy
Delarquans typically = the bad guy

now who is more likely to bag on who?

And this seperation between the affilliations that Ghoti is proposing is crazy. This sounds less like an arena for gladiators and more like a shelter for abused women. You need to drop that victim mentality.

Sylvester "The Ultraist" Frothingslosh

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420madman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!
get em Sylvester!
come to kick ass or don't come at all!

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Ghoti
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sylvester wrote:


now who is more likely to bag on who?

And this seperation between the affilliations that Ghoti is proposing is crazy. This sounds less like an arena for gladiators and more like a shelter for abused women. You need to drop that victim mentality.

Sylvester "The Ultraist" Frothingslosh


Actually I don't think it is all that crazy. In limited arenas it actualy makes sense. It is not all about whining either. A lot of people seem to feel that trying to get a graduate to ADM is important. Some have limited resources to do this with. Others actually do find the role playing side of that type of the game to thier interest and having a .. higher likleyhood of death turns them off. Yes some folks get attached to thier pieces of paper even if it is hard to comprehend.

Also this keeps that segment of managers in the game. If this was intended to play ALL one sided, the idea of having regional affiliations would never have come up. Keeping these people in the game (whining or not) is healthy for OUR passtime. RSI can make a few extra bucks and keep more people playing. I am aware of a few frustrated individuals that quit because they felt overwhelmed by having to have to fight one particular way.

Diversity will keep this game going far longer than bullying and telling someone to suck it up and learn. If there is a place for everyone.. and even with a few closed arenas, there is plenty of room. then even if it is a shelter for battered women, let em have it. (if it is sanctified, it might produce less whining)

Simply put, where one group says don't tell me I have to play by your rules is the same as saying you have to play by mine. That makes it a double standard. Giving a finite area for some to play by thier rules is certainly NOT going to hurt the Delarq or Delarq leaning Freebladers contingencies.

Ghoti
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Adie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

_sandman_ wrote:
I would suspect it has to do with the fact that when most of us think of gladitorial combat, we think of the Roman arena and the fact that virtually every duel ended in death.


Now that you bring this up...

I know most of us think that way, but I seem to recall a documentary that came out after the movie Gladiator, that noted gladiators rarely killed each other in Rome because they were often property invested in by their 'managers' and did not like, as most people, to watch their valuable assets die off when they could keep making money off them with bets, trading, etc.

Has anybody else heard of this, or am I just imagining what I thought I'd seen/heard?

_sandman_ wrote:
Personally, I have no problem with either way of playing the game. I'll play my way, you play yours and we'll be fine. The problem comes when people try to tell one another how to play.


This is one of the most interesting comments, because that is what I tend to play by, with the added concept that people who play with similar styles, play in one arena or set of arenas (for obvious reasons), while others play in other arenas. Even more interesting, when those who play similarly are grouped in a single arena and ask people to stick with this idea and play like the rest, they (read: DM 11) get bagged on it even more and are accused of telling people that's how they have to play. <scratches head> But lets not open that can of worms! Wink

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Adie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sylvester wrote:
IMO, this is a simple question to answer.
Andorians typically = the good guy
Delarquans typically = the bad guy

now who is more likely to bag on who?


So simple! I was so close to this idea too and it just barely escaped me! The subtleties in the simple answer provide all the details one can possibly imagine.

There has to be a bit more to it though, right? I mean, if the underlying context of this simple answer is that 'bad guys' are simply just BAD, it can't be true... Afterall, not ALL Delarquans are bad people, right? Or am I kidding myself?

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Adie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think we're missing the question a bit. Lets see if I can clarify... though Sylvester's answer might still be the easiest one...

Andorian's run Andorian style for a number of reasons obviously,
Honor of the style...
Give everyone (warrior and manager) their shot of graduation...
Protecting investments...
etc.

It all comes together in a style of philosophy that translates into strategies. The reasons above sound reasonable to me, and every now and then non-Andorian managers may wish to take advantage of this style to protect/graduate a special someone of theirs. So why is it bagged on? Is it the continual advertising of the honor aspect? The invariably termed 'whining'? The 'sissy' style of strategies?

Does anybody else have their own opinions about why Andorians suck? I'm not passing judgement, I just wanna hear it. Throw down your worst.

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gameogre
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

While I generally feel that there could be a handful of "true" Andorian arenas in the game without anyone minding/caring at all if it were set up properly, I'll give you my other take on the present set up. Since you asked...

Andorians suck because: They want to play by rules that are not inherent rules of the game and there is no separate place for this to occur. SO people with no idea of the consequences may ask for their arena or be abitrarily assigned to one by RSI. They are not then able to transfer the team to another arena where "normal" play is possible without being trashed by others in the arena (I do not consider going to the transfer arena "obtaining normal play".) When I sent in my first team upon returning to the game a year ago, I left the arena up to RSI and was added to a near dead Andorian arena (the whole idea of which I had never heard of in my first 3-4 year stint in the game). If I had not already had the experience of the game when it's really enjoyable I would have quit within a couple months. This is not to say that this situation is entirely the fault of people who want to play "andorian rules" but given the game's realities at this time, most of the choices available were their's and their choices sucked as far as I'm concerned.

As long as there is nothing in writing warning new players about the experiences non-conforming managers are likely to receive in Andorian arenas and further no way to move an affected team to another normal arena, the Andorians are not the "good guys". They are simply a subset of the game that wants things their way and will behave in the manner they claim to dislike to have that way....
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Smug
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I dont hold with the Andorian way because of the fact that RSI created this game with rules and the Andorian way seems to say "Boy It'd be sooo much better if RSI would have made THESE rules instead!" The rules inherent in RSI allow you to downchallenge ONLY TO AN EXTENT. So why whine about it. Besides, if you are being downchallenged, it only gives your warrior the same benefits or adverse effects that he'd receive if he was to challenge UP! And challenging up is ALSO limited to and extent. As for kills, if you get that attached to your piece of paper......dude, you're playing the wrong game, seriously. This is not saying that I hold with the Delarquian values either, as continually trying to kill an opponent would only hinder your win/loss record. RSI set up rules for this game, and my goal is to win WITHIN THAT SET OF RULES! I think it'd be wrong for anyone to say that their arena should be run differently just because they think it should.

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Ghoti
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I see a trend here saying that Andorans don't play by the rules.. I have to point out that Andorians are still playing by the rules. Thye just arent using all of what is available. Limited aiming, Limited KD.. No DC.. which eventually did cause me some confusion as DC in BF is the same thing and I feel if you are going to DC in a bloodfeud, you essentially are still DC'ing so I don't find DC a big deal. I also want to clarify that I do not personally call myself a true andorian, in case someone has thought to surmise that. I just feel there should be a place for everyone. A kind of respect in a way..

As to who gets bagged on, I think it is mutual and conditional.. though in terms of actions after the fact I think Andorian get the brunt of it. Because to compete against the full set of rules you have to use the full set of rules.

As to setting rules, it would have to be set within gentlemans agreement that Arenas X and Y and Z were to be run and followed under a specified set of rules. We would likely have to get an RSI buy in to advert it that way. Now I am not saying that someone can't go in and well.... be a putz about it.. just that a general concensus that, as a whole, this is how this arena works.

We are not just talking.. rules here, as a fantasy game, there is a history as well. and RSI has already bought into that idea. Thus the Regioins that have been set up.. so it is not like I am presenting something new here. Just get everyone to agree on something even if in the end it is decided to disagree.

Adie, Sorry if I seem to be steering this in a different direction. It just seemed like the place to do it.

Ghoti
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