Duel2.Com  
•   Home  •  Rules  •  Your Account  •  Forums  • Newsletters  •
Navigate
· Home
· Content
· Encyclopedia
· Forums
· Members List
· Newsletters
· Old Newsletters
· Private Messages
· Setup
· Tourneys
· Your Account
User Info
Welcome, Anonymous
Nickname
Password
(Register)
Membership:
Latest: queen72dinner
New Today: 7
New Yesterday: 9
Overall: 19649

People Online:
Visitors:
Members:
Total: 0
Duel2.Com: Forums

Duel2 :: View topic - ancient suggestion
 Forum FAQ  •  Search  •  Memberlist  •  Usergroups   •  Register  •  Profile  •  Log in to check your private messages  •  Log in

 
Post new topicReply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
Obregon
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Jul 06, 2010
Posts: 442
Location: The most interesting place in the world

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

How about eliminating the entire 'skill burning' concept?

If my warrior trains his strength to 11, why is the cap of his learned attack and parry skills mystically reduced until (if and when) he reaches Primus?

This has bugged me for decades (!). Is this a game balance issue or simply something that is hard to change in the code?
View user's profileSend private message
Grimm
ArchMaster Poster
ArchMaster Poster


Joined: Sep 13, 2006
Posts: 1001

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well training stats versus skills is always a choice. First,Training ST to 11 does not cost any skills. If you go to Terrablood's website you will see the stat increases that give you skills.

The burner, is a warrior that can not quite make these stat skill points, so instead of DA'ing or if you see the potential of early skill gain you can set up stats to be a train or two away from these points. Now it is true you lose these skills until primus, but it can give you a jolt in the right direction when starting a warrior (therefore a lot of early potential in first 20 fights). If you stick with the warrior you can always get them back in primus.

Example 10 7 10 20 20 5 12, you have 3-4 immediate burns if you like wt to 21 wl to 21, DF 13, and spd to 6 if ya wish. In 4 trains you will get a ton of skills, but you lose those until primus. Yet, this is a nice start in say a rookies tourny.

Seems interesting, well it is, but not all of like burning. If you look in some of the past forms you will see write-ups on why not to burn. Really there is no right or wrong with burning, everything is situational.

Going back to your original point. I would wager that it would require a huge code change to make them separate of each other. Therefore, you have to figure your startegy per warrior and train appropriately.

_________________
Willy hears ya, Willy don't care.
View user's profileSend private message
Obregon
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Jul 06, 2010
Posts: 442
Location: The most interesting place in the world

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

That's my point. Why even have the 'burn' concept in the first place? From a game design perspective, why should stat training lower the warrior's skill training ceiling?
View user's profileSend private message
Stik
ArchMaster Poster
ArchMaster Poster


Joined: May 06, 2003
Posts: 2119
Location: Frozen Tundra of North Dakota

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

At this point, it's kind of a 'why ask why?' area, since it was one of the basic concepts built into the game from the start, and will almost guaranteed NEVER be pulled out or changed.

It's been very tough generally for us managers to get RSI to make even small tweaks to the basic code for certain wants/needs in the game over the years. They would never consider changing the "burn" feature IMO.

_________________
Stik
Grim Fandango (21)
and various DM82/84/100 projects
View user's profileSend private message
One Armed Bandit
ArchMaster Poster
ArchMaster Poster


Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 2555

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
simply something that is hard to change in the code?


I am guessing this. Even if there was a consensus to change this aspect of the game (which there likely is not), the code is just too complicated to change without risking breaking the game.
View user's profileSend private message
The Consortium
ArchMaster Poster
ArchMaster Poster


Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 8667
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Obregon wrote:
That's my point. Why even have the 'burn' concept in the first place? From a game design perspective, why should stat training lower the warrior's skill training ceiling?


We think the interaction between the two is one of the most interesting and relevant parts of the game.

_________________
Ye Old Consortium Scribe & Crapmaster 2013, Crapgiver 2014
982 ADM graduates (with 40+ manager IDs) including 101K+ fights and 65K+ wins plus 4 teams with 1000+ wins (Animal Farm DM11 @1479*; Bulldogs DM11 @ 1420; Lenpros DM30 @ 1396; Fandils @ 1305
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
Lukeal
Unchartered Poster


Joined: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 23
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So, from what I recall and have re-read through the forums to make sure it hasn't changed.
You are thinking of it slightly wrongly.
The basic issue behind this is that skill training has a cap while stat training does not.
Stat training in and off itself does not lower your ceiling.
It is the timing of the stat training that trades off between near term advantage and long term maximums.
Stat train prior to skill capping may make your warrior more playable/survivable/better in the near term but it lowers his theoretical end game cap.
Waiting to hit skill cap prior to stat training may be way more painful in the short term, but gives you the maximum possible long term benefits.

This is a pretty core part of the depth of the game for warrior development and I can't see it being changed.
View user's profileSend private message
Bartender
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Lukeal wrote:
This is a pretty core part of the depth of the game for warrior development and I can't see it being changed.


That, and you can un-burn those skills in Primus, so it does not change your warrior's end game potential.

_________________
Bartender
On the Rocks (35,103), Jungleland (81), Gorgeous Goblins (102)
View user's profileSend private message
Obregon
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Jul 06, 2010
Posts: 442
Location: The most interesting place in the world

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm not thinking that it WILL change, and I understand that it is a core part of the game that some people enjoy ... I just find it illogical.

Why would studying and improving Wit LOWER the cap of learned skills? If a skill represents a manuever, combination, or routine, why should training my Wit deny me the ability to learn 20 such manuevers like the next guy? It makes no sense and is doubly frustrating because, like many of the secrets of the game, IT WAS NEVER OFFICIALLY DISCLOSED THAT SKILL BURNING EXISTED.

The underlying game design is the real reason for skill burning, not because there is some basis in reality for it. The game design reasons (my guess):

* No skill burning would reduce the incentive to train skills
* No skill burning would increase the effective cap on skill levels in Basic ... people could effectively train up to 25-30 skills over base in each skill
* Skill burning gives people an incentive to reach the end game

All of these are fine reasons, but they don't resolve the underlying fallacy of the regime. Pumping iron in the gym doesn't reduce your ability to learn how to punch someone in the face.

_________________
Stay deadly, my friends.
Active: Far Travelers (16, 81), James Bondage (5), Bunion Squad (7), Rogues Gallery (10), Reptile Rampage (21), Order of Battle (32), Forking Disasters (47), Death Cult (51)
View user's profileSend private message
DeepThought
Grandmaster Poster
Grandmaster Poster


Joined: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 585
Location: On the starship Heart of Gold

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Obregon wrote:
I'm not thinking that it WILL change, and I understand that it is a core part of the game that some people enjoy ... I just find it illogical.

Why would studying and improving Wit LOWER the cap of learned skills? If a skill represents a manuever, combination, or routine, why should training my Wit deny me the ability to learn 20 such manuevers like the next guy? It makes no sense and is doubly frustrating because, like many of the secrets of the game, IT WAS NEVER OFFICIALLY DISCLOSED THAT SKILL BURNING EXISTED.
The secrets of the game was one of the best original ideas. I'm sure that RSI never thought in 1984 that this game would still be going in 2010 and that players would dissect every aspect of it. Not to mention the amazing amount of hours that some have spent tracking stats so the rest of us can push a couple of buttons and be able to see almost exactly what our warriors would look like. The underlying game design is the real reason for skill burning, not because there is some basis in reality for it. The game design reasons (my guess):
This isn't the only aspect of the game the contradicts real-world logic and is generally accepted as part of the game.

* No skill burning would reduce the incentive to train skills
* No skill burning would increase the effective cap on skill levels in Basic ... people could effectively train up to 25-30 skills over base in each skill
* Skill burning gives people an incentive to reach the end game
I had no idea about skill burning in my first or second go around with RSI...1987-90 and 1993-1995. But wasn't the best part of playing Zelda, using a bomb and finding a secret cave? All of these are fine reasons, but they don't resolve the underlying fallacy of the regime. Pumping iron in the gym doesn't reduce your ability to learn how to punch someone in the face.

And an open-hand AB shouldn't be able to parry and break my WS's off-hand hatchet, then his scimitar, then his backup scimitar. But that just happened in Talahya.

_________________
The Walking Dead DM-32
Monster Manual DM-81
The Hitchhikers DM-11
Blood and Sand DM-21
MSNBC DM-47
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
Obregon
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Jul 06, 2010
Posts: 442
Location: The most interesting place in the world

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:32 am Reply with quoteBack to top

DeepThought wrote:
And an open-hand AB shouldn't be able to parry and break my WS's off-hand hatchet, then his scimitar, then his backup scimitar. But that just happened in Talahya.


Iron hand technique, grasshopper.

_________________
Stay deadly, my friends.
Active: Far Travelers (16, 81), James Bondage (5), Bunion Squad (7), Rogues Gallery (10), Reptile Rampage (21), Order of Battle (32), Forking Disasters (47), Death Cult (51)
View user's profileSend private message
bubbaganoosh
Grandmaster Poster
Grandmaster Poster


Joined: Feb 15, 2009
Posts: 943
Location: Palm Harbor, FL

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Obregon wrote:
I'm not thinking that it WILL change, and I understand that it is a core part of the game that some people enjoy ... I just find it illogical.


this is how i see it:

when you train SKILLS, you learn certain skills and improve in a particular skill area.

when you train ATTRIBUTES, you improve your warrior's physical capabilities- be it strength, con, wit, whatever.

when either of these two things happens independently of each other, all is fair. no penalty.

however, when you train an ATTRIBUTE and simultaneously gain SKILLS, it's much more powerful than doing just one at a time so it makes sense that there should be a penalty for improving your warrior in this fashion.

also, i think it's possible to burn your warrior beyond repair. if you take a good roll up - one that, given enough time and a wee bit of luck, can make it to primus, and burn the snot out of it, you could theoretically cap it's skill learns to such a low cieling that you'd never be competetive enough to make it to primus in order to gain those skills back. granted, this is a bit extreme... but retrieving burned skills isn't guaranteed.

_________________
Bubba Ganoosh
Death By Design - Arvat, Arena 32
Bubba's Clam Shack - Zuwayza, Arena 19
View user's profileSend private messageAIM AddressYahoo Messenger
Managerr
ArchMaster Poster
ArchMaster Poster


Joined: Jul 12, 2002
Posts: 4036
Location: Omaha

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
also, i think it's possible to burn your warrior beyond repair. if you take a good roll up - one that, given enough time and a wee bit of luck, can make it to primus, and burn the snot out of it, you could theoretically cap it's skill learns to such a low cieling that you'd never be competetive enough to make it to primus in order to gain those skills back. granted, this is a bit extreme... but retrieving burned skills isn't guaranteed.


If you could pull this off though, such a warrior would be FANTASTIC in the ADM tourneys.
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailAIM AddressICQ Number
Obregon
Advanced Master Poster
Advanced Master Poster


Joined: Jul 06, 2010
Posts: 442
Location: The most interesting place in the world

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bubbaganoosh wrote:
Obregon wrote:
I'm not thinking that it WILL change, and I understand that it is a core part of the game that some people enjoy ... I just find it illogical.


this is how i see it:

when you train SKILLS, you learn certain skills and improve in a particular skill area.

when you train ATTRIBUTES, you improve your warrior's physical capabilities- be it strength, con, wit, whatever.

when either of these two things happens independently of each other, all is fair. no penalty.

however, when you train an ATTRIBUTE and simultaneously gain SKILLS, it's much more powerful than doing just one at a time so it makes sense that there should be a penalty for improving your warrior in this fashion.

also, i think it's possible to burn your warrior beyond repair. if you take a good roll up - one that, given enough time and a wee bit of luck, can make it to primus, and burn the snot out of it, you could theoretically cap it's skill learns to such a low cieling that you'd never be competetive enough to make it to primus in order to gain those skills back. granted, this is a bit extreme... but retrieving burned skills isn't guaranteed.


There is no question that stat training (and WL) would become overpowered if skill burning were eliminated. There would have to be a balancing factor for the reasons you suggest, although the diminishing returns aspect of stat training (harder to do the more you do it) would seem to be a counterbalance.

As far as burning beyond repair, I have to say that I may have a warrior that fits that description. Way back when, I burned 39 skills on him before I knew about skill burning, and I'm sitting at around 180 total skills. I am maxed on skill training. It's going to take a good long time to get Primus-eligible (210 to 220 skills, right?). Which is a shame, since he's a PR bonused in Parry and Defense and might be competitive.

_________________
Stay deadly, my friends.
Active: Far Travelers (16, 81), James Bondage (5), Bunion Squad (7), Rogues Gallery (10), Reptile Rampage (21), Order of Battle (32), Forking Disasters (47), Death Cult (51)
View user's profileSend private message
bubbaganoosh
Grandmaster Poster
Grandmaster Poster


Joined: Feb 15, 2009
Posts: 943
Location: Palm Harbor, FL

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Managerr wrote:
Quote:
also, i think it's possible to burn your warrior beyond repair. if you take a good roll up - one that, given enough time and a wee bit of luck, can make it to primus, and burn the snot out of it, you could theoretically cap it's skill learns to such a low cieling that you'd never be competetive enough to make it to primus in order to gain those skills back. granted, this is a bit extreme... but retrieving burned skills isn't guaranteed.


If you could pull this off though, such a warrior would be FANTASTIC in the ADM tourneys.


tru dat...

_________________
Bubba Ganoosh
Death By Design - Arvat, Arena 32
Bubba's Clam Shack - Zuwayza, Arena 19
View user's profileSend private messageAIM AddressYahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:      
Post new topicReply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB 2.0.10 © 2001 phpBB Group

Version 2.0.6 of PHP-Nuke Port by Tom Nitzschner © 2002 www.toms-home.com
Forums ©
:: fisubsilver shadow phpbb2 style by Daz :: PHP-Nuke theme by coldblooded (www.nukemods.com) ::