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Duel2 :: View topic - Shadowspire Hall of Fame
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Chris has summarized Agent's (and all of Consortium's) opposition well. Previous attempts at voting HOF's elsewhere have become popularity, political, group-you vote-for-mine-I'll-vote-for-yours, payback, can't-stand-that-Manager, which-Manager-can-present-the best-story, etc. type events. We see no good way around that other than criteria set by an impartial group, and selection made by an impartial group. we do not see that happening when selected by the varying arena population itself.

For that reason, we are opposed and out.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH Idea Rolling Eyes

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Nomad
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well, that explanation for opposition makes sense. I would like to think it wouldn't come to that, but apparently there is some experience behind this concern. Thanks for the explanation.

Possilbe criteria: (All just ideas)
66% win percentage
A higher/lower win % if a warrior is present for 40+ turns
Graduation
Have been Duelmaster
Ranking in the top 3, 5, 7 all time of one-style win % (must be over 60%?)

Whatelse could go into it? Not everyone attempt to get, or even wants, kills. And certain styles would be limited there.

Duelmaster - if this is really about a Shadowspire HOF, how can you claim that if you haven't held the top spot for a turn? It would probably end up excluding a few, but is that bad?

Just some thoughts to get it started.
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Elephant
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Visionst01 wrote:
Elephant has decided to step away from the HOF and I will respect his decision and he would be welcomed back if he changes his mind in the future.
Let me clarify here. I decided to step away from being directly involved with the HOF as a representative. After this thread was threadjacked on two separate occasions by the same person, I lost my mind on the person. I let this person get the best of me. I felt that it wasn’t appropriate for a representative of the HOF to act this way. This is why I stepped away from it. I will still give my opinion as an individual manager.

Visionst01 wrote:
Okay the voting solved nothing with it split pretty much right down the middle.

I have been troubled about the voting system I came up with, that was the reason for the vote. I also talked with Consortium about his opposition to the concept and his misgivings were exactly the same thing that was troubling me.

For the HOF to really work and be a true representation of the best warriors in Shadowspire history, we have to come up with a qualifying system that will make sure it is impartial as possible and try and keep politics out of the process. Using the ballot system I suggested could possibly be undermind by an alliance or group of managers agreeing to vote for each others warriors. Also the candidate thread that was created was well intentioned, but it also could bring politics into the process.
The only way I can think of it to be totally impartial is for all of us to come up with a criteria that a warrior must reach to be automatically inducted into the Shadowspire HOF.

So unless someone has a better idea, let's start working on the criteria.
Let me start off by saying I have great respect for Consortium both as a manager and a person. But just because he(they) opposed this doesn’t mean the majority is against voting. I know he encompasses 40+ manager identities but he’s still one person. Any voting process will run the risk of the things mentioned above but majority votes should rule.

The candidate thread was created for discussion on warriors to keep us from getting off topic here. Candidates both in the political and sports sides get promoted/hyped. That thread gives us a chance to ask / tell information on candidates. Politics will be part of any candidate that is part of the process. It's a process we've used in America for a long time.

I am opposed to setting criteria. No matter what the criteria is, something will be overlooked or took much weight could be placed on a subject. I think there will always be a flaw. Someone like The Small Cat could get left off.

As I said before, majority should rule. Take a vote and see who wants majority votes and who wants criteria. My vote is for majority votes.
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Grimm
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Elephant, I do not know if I was one of the few who got a chance to read your post that was deleted, and I will submit that I had been close a few times to saying something myself. After I thought about it, I figured I should just ignore it, and most of the time I do. A few people have gotten bitey at me when I get fed up at the thread jacking and questionable posts, so I try in all my power to let it be, pimpin ain't easy.

Anyway, I figured since I haven't said anything on this topic it is my turn. First off, I do like the idea of the HoF in theory. It may increase some interest in the game, such as more personals, stories, etc; however, overall I am actually more against the HoF.

To be honest it doesn't really matter if you get voted to the HoF, or if you don't. Who gives a bleep.

Along with the main problems that have been noted by Consortium and others there exists other difficulties in assessing who should be voted in. There is a lot more than percentages that goes into designing/managing a truly special warrior. First, quality of opponents (FE, win/loss, and style match up) makes a huge impact on a warriors performance. I would argue few members of 81 pay close enough attention to be able to accurately assess all arena members.

Point two, certain styles performance versus skill level/FE. It is no hidden surprise that classes such as PL's PS's tend to have more difficulty than styles such as TP scum and ST's. They tend to have weaknesses that are not overcome until they learn skills in the necessary areas to better compete. The problem is many styles do not learn well at certain points during development, this limits their assessment due to notable win loss deficiencies. A PL who goes 18 and 12 and graduates may be a substantially better warrior that a ST who goes 18 and 6, how can you assess such things.

I would say that the only way you could mitigate this is to have best per style, or you would have to compare much more closely than win loss records. The situation is complex, and to be honest I do not care that much either way, I just respect that there are issues and it may be difficult to solve.

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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Were WE to have criteria, it would look something like this ...

In all cases, the warrior must "graduate".
No distinction by style, as the warrior simply must meet the criteria, no matter what the manager chosen style.

1. 5+ DM Titles
2. 75+% W/L Record
3. 4 DM Titles, 55+% W/L Record.
4. 3 DM Titles, 62.5%+ W/L Record
5. 2. DM Titles, 67.5%+ W/L Record.

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Tripwire
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I am for both actually.

My opinion/advice would be to make a set standard that gives you an AUTO Hall of Fame. Make it Tough to get in!

I would even make it a bit tougher than The Consortium post above.

Auto HoF For:

1. 80% + Graduation if no DM Titles
2. 5+ DM Titles = Auto regardless of W/L
3. 4 DM Titles, 60% W/L
4. 3 DM Titles, 65% W/L
5. 2 DM Titles, 70% W/L
6. 1 DM Title, 75% W/L

Something along those lines.

And I would have a "Fan Favorite" write in vote. 1 or 2 per year that would also get into the Hall of Fame. You could use ballots and whatnot for that one and the most voted for warrior would get in regardless of the qualifications.

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Visionst01
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Here is the Shadowspire Hall of Fame Automatic Induction Criteria.

As of turn warrior receives his/her/its invite.
80%+ W/L
4+ DM Titles
3 DM Titles + 65%+ W/L
2 DM Titles + 70%+ W/L
1 DM Title + 75%+ W/L

Warriors that meets any of these criteria will be automatically inducted into the Shadowspire Hall of Fame.

Also their will be a vote once a year, where the warrior recieving the most votes will be inducted. For warriors to be eligible for these votes they also must meet a set criteria. The criteria is as follows...

If they have 1 or more DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 60% W/L.
If they have no DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 70% W/L.

Any warrior that meets either of these criteria will be eligible for the yearly vote.

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Action
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I really like this idea. It will make it more interesting for me, pursuing standards set by the elite. Is someone going to compile a list of past warriors and put together an inaugural class? I can see two or three hopefuls in the rankings right now. Not mine of course. Razz

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I am working on it. I will have a webpage setup with a HOF page and a page listing all graduates.

I was going to do voting via email and diplo, but decided since this is an old school arena that voting should only be done by diplo.

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FLOYD1
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:49 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Love the diplo idea by the way .... sticking to the ol school roots.
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Visionst01 wrote:
Here is the Shadowspire Hall of Fame Automatic Induction Criteria.

As of turn warrior receives his/her/its invite.
80%+ W/L
4+ DM Titles
3 DM Titles + 65%+ W/L
2 DM Titles + 70%+ W/L
1 DM Title + 75%+ W/L

Warriors that meets any of these criteria will be automatically inducted into the Shadowspire Hall of Fame.

Also their will be a vote once a year, where the warrior recieving the most votes will be inducted. For warriors to be eligible for these votes they also must meet a set criteria. The criteria is as follows...

If they have 1 or more DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 60% W/L.
If they have no DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 70% W/L.

Any warrior that meets either of these criteria will be eligible for the yearly vote.



Four comments ....
1. Makes some good sense, Chris, although we have the same qualms about the vote as before. We suspect the annual vote will be a political/fair/unfair issue.
2. The Consortium would get one vote like anyone else, and we are surprised at Elephant's commenting that some might have thought otherwise.
3. The annual voting - might want to also determine is it just for THAT year, or any year previous.
4. Good luck to you all with it.

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Darque
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Visionst01 wrote:
Here is the Shadowspire Hall of Fame Automatic Induction Criteria.

As of turn warrior receives his/her/its invite.
80%+ W/L
4+ DM Titles
3 DM Titles + 65%+ W/L
2 DM Titles + 70%+ W/L
1 DM Title + 75%+ W/L

Warriors that meets any of these criteria will be automatically inducted into the Shadowspire Hall of Fame.


Using the above criteria, here will be the "auto" Freshmen class of HOF inductees. I'm working down on the list above:

NAME - W/L% - TIMES DM

Copernicus (90.00) - 2
Low and Away (85.17) - 0
Anvil Ironfist (84.62) - 3
Hummingbird (80.00) - 3
'76 Gran Torino (75.00) - 7
Rat Loving Cat (77.50) - 2
Burm Wolfsnarl (77.27) - 2
Shaviola (75.86) - 2
Corrin (74.07) - 2
Kanodraug (73.91) - 2
Chili Surprise (73.91) - 2
Lutherius (72.00) - 2
Dunnik (70.83) - 2
Chakhari (70.00) - 3
Outlaw Pete (70.00) - 3
Gurg (65.22) - 3

Quote:
Also their will be a vote once a year, where the warrior recieving the most votes will be inducted. For warriors to be eligible for these votes they also must meet a set criteria. The criteria is as follows...

If they have 1 or more DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 60% W/L.
If they have no DM titles, they must have a minimum of a 70% W/L.

Any warrior that meets either of these criteria will be eligible for the yearly vote.


I'll give Visionist the honor of constucting this list Wink

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Darque
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

There is little fair in life, so I don't see that as a valid argument against the voting process. The suggestion that we have a voting process that is devoid of politics boggles my mind as well. Holding a vote, in and of itself, implies there are variances of opinion. I have no doubt there is certainly some bitterness or hard-feelings between some managers here and there, but I fail to see how these serve to throw a wrench into the WHOLE process.

Should it be run with integrity and be devoid of any "unfairness"? Most certainly! Is everyone's moral compass pointing in the same direction and everyone is going to feel exactly the same on this issue? Not in a million years! Do we vote in a vacuum that frees us from any personal presuppositions when it comes to managerial style, personality, warrior styles, and the like? Another negative.

I'm not a big fan of the criteria method because it just makes it a ST, TP, LU hall with the occasional WS and PR thrown in for good measure. However, I'm just the record-keeper and will go whichever way the wind blows on this one. It means little in the grand scheme of what I already do for Shadowspire in terms of being the historian -- whatever ya'll want.

Everyone is certainly welcome to their opinion. I have and will continue to read each thoughtfully. The above is mine, and I hope it gets the same consideration.

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Action
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Since it is about competition and it is a basic arena we will have to live with the nature of the styles just as we do the voting. I think the voting will help balance that problem somewhat which I guess is at least partially the purpose. Like Bowtie Bob who I think had one turn with the throne but as a slasher won almost 66% of his fights. I'm not making an early campaign, just an example. Plus I can see two non TP defensive styles with great chances of making it in a couple of months. I think one of the most enjoyable things about a HOF is the contentiousness. The squabbling might get out of hand here and there, but I foresee that, for the most part, it will work out just fine.

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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Action wrote:
Since it is about competition and it is a basic arena we will have to live with the nature of the styles just as we do the voting. I think the voting will help balance that problem somewhat which I guess is at least partially the purpose. Like Bowtie Bob who I think had one turn with the throne but as a slasher won almost 66% of his fights. I'm not making an early campaign, just an example. Plus I can see two non TP defensive styles with great chances of making it in a couple of months. I think one of the most enjoyable things about a HOF is the contentiousness. The squabbling might get out of hand here and there, but I foresee that, for the most part, it will work out just fine.


Oh, you bet.
We Shadowspire managers are a contentious group!

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