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Duel2 :: View topic - 11-4-13-16-3-10-13
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Stik
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I"m gonna make this into a tourney ST of course, just wondering what flavor. Would be interested in some opinions. My initial thoughts:

12-4-13-21-9-10-15

Or leave DF at 13 and pump more into ST maybe? Is will at 7 enough? Probably not with a 4 CN...discuss!

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One Armed Bandit
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Looks perfect to me, Stik.
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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My only my'eh on this guy is the endurance. I kinda like a little more endurance and a pretty good shot at great damage, when it is SOOO close (14/13 looks like the break point), to go with the endurance! Not like it'd be hurting that bad with your numbers 9/10 ATT/DEC and Good damage.

I'd likely go 14-4-13-21-9-10-13 ST (8/10 ATT/DEC probably Great Damage). I'd also be more tempted to go 12 SP before adding to DF (8 ATT/11 DEC; count on the 21 WT to bolster the ATT). Then again I REALLY like a ST who can use the EP, against light(0-8 or 10) armor, for it's speed and in case I get jumped maybe a little RIP bonus that the EP seems to have; your design!

Looks to me like you have at least 3 solid different ways you could polish off this guy with those last 2 points. Could be 4 points to play with but I probably wouldn't go WL 7 on this one.

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Last edited by Street_Legal on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Stik wrote:
I"m gonna make this into a tourney ST of course, just wondering what flavor. Would be interested in some opinions. My initial thoughts:

12-4-13-21-9-10-15

Or leave DF at 13 and pump more into ST maybe? Is will at 7 enough? Probably not with a 4 CN...discuss!


We sorta, kinda, exactly, almost agree.
We would probably go with 12-4-13-21-9-12-13 as a ST.
But we like yours as our almost perfect second choice.

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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Consortium wrote:
Stik wrote:
I"m gonna make this into a tourney ST of course, just wondering what flavor. Would be interested in some opinions. My initial thoughts:

12-4-13-21-9-10-15

Or leave DF at 13 and pump more into ST maybe? Is will at 7 enough? Probably not with a 4 CN...discuss!


We sorta, kinda, exactly, almost agree.
We would probably go with 12-4-13-21-9-12-13 as a ST.
But we like yours as our almost perfect second choice.



Good luck on your decision Stik! Looks like we have 3 pretty good ST managers agreeing that the 3 ,most likely, design options that I posted disagreeing and picking all 3 options! OAB taking your design, me taking the 2 points from DF into ST, and Consortium taking the 2 points from DF into SP!

I realize your VERY aware of the design generator but, as has been my tendency lately, I'd like to post the skill bases for your ease and even more so for the returning and new managers to see what a VERY GOOD 9 WL Striker looks like! We have seen Tripwire's, another excellent ST manager, 21 WT 17 WL design, now we look at the 9 WL design:


12-4-13-21-9-10-15 ST (Stik and OAB)
Ini: 12 Never wastes a moment or is indecisive
Rip: 11 Is an extremely crafty fighter
Att: 9 Is always thinking of feints and ploys to be used in attacks
Par: 2
Def: 9 He's always thinking a few steps ahead of his foes
Dec: 10

GOOD+ damage, on the matrix, (83% Good/17% Great no entries had Normal damage; remember there is a pretty small "data point", looks like 6 or maybe 12, of warriors so the %'s are just a guideline)

Endurance: VL-59% Little-29% Normal-12%

12-4-13-21-9-12-13 ST (THE Consortium)
Ini: 11 Never wastes a moment or is indecisive
Rip: 11 Is an extremely crafty fighter
Att: 8 Is always thinking of feints and ploys to be used in attacks
Par: 1
Def: 8 He's always thinking a few steps ahead of his foes
Dec: 11

Same damage and endurance as above example


14-4-13-21-9-10-13 ST (Street Legal)
Ini: 10 Never wastes a moment or is indecisive
Rip: 10 Is an extremely crafty fighter
Att: 8 Is always thinking of feints and ploys to be used in attacks
Par: 1
Def: 8 He's always thinking a few steps ahead of his foes
Dec: 10

Great -/+ Damage (50% Great 50% Good; as above a guideline not gospel but on the matrix, for SZ 13, a 14 Strength is the first data point where Great s the expected damage rating and Tremendous becomes available, often referred to as a "breakpoint" by us)

Endurance: VL-73% Little-17% Normal-10%; BWAH Confused ? About a week ago someone posted about training CN and not getting what the generator told him would be a guarantee for GOOD Endurance. Here you can see that this guy has 18 more endurance points, 162 for this guy and 144 for the other 2 (ST+CN*WL), yet his endurance percentages got WORSE! This just shows the way the limited data base of entries has played out poorly to make the generator a guideline not gospel for endurance and damage percentages! If we ALL entered our guys, every one of us with every warrior, we could get a pretty reliable database!

As is clear, by our choices, that sometimes pure number of skills, or areas where skills exist (eg INI RIP etc.), are sacrificed for others or, in my case, for physicals (ST and CN for either Damage, Endurance, or ability to take damage) to try and get them a better shot at being successful!

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One Armed Bandit
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I like Street Legal's 14 ST version, as well. His design is probably better for a replacement as the warrior is more likely to roll up with good enough physicals. I could certainly see myself going that route.

Any of the versions suggested are reasonable, though.
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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

One Armed Bandit wrote:
I like Street Legal's 14 ST version, as well. His design is probably better for a replacement as the warrior is more likely to roll up with good enough physicals. I could certainly see myself going that route.

Any of the versions suggested are reasonable, though.


The interesting thing is we just had another ST where I stated my love of the EP for the ST yet I forego it being suited on this design. I differed with you on the added ST to get a shot at Tremendous or simply better shot at Great damage to get the EP suited. On this design I'd like the little extra bit of physicals for endurance and damage over being suited for the EP, and the skills at 15 DF. Just goes to show how "Intricate" the dance of designing a warrior can be!

PS- I'd still try the EP with 13 DF if I was struggling to find a weapon that worked. Of ALL weapons that I use unsuited I found the EP to likely be the most fickle! That's not to say I haven't thrown it on a 7 DF Lunger once or twice, because it sucked with everything else, but I tend to not try the EP beyond 2 points unsuited in DF (13 DF minimum) or 4 points unsuited in WT(11 WT minimum)!

Just an observation I've made having used the weapon ALOT! I think I might even try a guy with the weapon having the highest single requirement in the game, HL/17 ST, with a 3 ST before I gave a guy the EP with a 9 WT or DF (excepting for a high ATT style like LU or AB; high ATT can almost always overcome unsuited; though you still pay a price)!

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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

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KidArcane
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This is why I generally (though not always) use the forum to bounce ideas around re: rollups. There is an undefined 'sense of judgement' that I lack and can't seem to acquire. Case in point:

Looking at what you guys are writing, it seems that everyone is heading over to Terrablood's site (or you have your own calculators) and you're designing this fighter with one primary goal in mind --- how many skills can I get? or, Which design gives the most OFFENSIVE skills? Confused

Looking at the numbers it's obvious (even to a veteran noob like myself) that it has to be an offensive type because of the low CN, and given the low WL it's gonna be a Striker. Okay, follow you guys so far...

But why didn't anyone push for the 13 ST? I thought that access to the WH or Greataxe was important due to the numerous APA-scum types out there? Given that this is a ST and not a finesse style, doesn't it seem that the DF is already higher than it needs to be? Wouldn't adding to ST to at least make it 13 seem like the more viable thing to do? Then add one to SP and: 13-4-13-21-9-11-13. Cool

This seemed like the most obvious incarnation, but again, my thoughts are not aligned with most managers. I'd like to know why I'm missing the boat, guys. What's the thinking here? Is this because it's bound primarily for tournament?

Okay, it boils down to this question: Are the skills gained via these various design suggestions really more important than the ability to be 'well-suited' to the WH? If so, why? Confused Would someone be willing to explain the design strategy here? I really don't get it. Cry

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One Armed Bandit
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:28 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Street Legal's design (14 ST) has access to the WH and GA, if you wish, but generally speaking, BA, SC, and BS are all better weapons against APA than those two.

If you look at the damage chart for SZ 13, you will notice that at 13 ST/13 SZ the range is G+ (Good or Great) and at 14 ST/13 SZ the range is -R+ (Good, Great or Tremendous), something which Street Legal pointed out and I initially overlooked. Instead of adding the last point to ST, you choose to add it to SP, which at 11 SP, provides very little benefit for a Striker.

So on the subject of "Why didn't anyone push for the 13 ST?" I would argue that Street Legal did and then pushed for the 14 ST on top of that and he made a convincing case for it!
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KidArcane
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

One Armed Bandit wrote:
Street Legal's design (14 ST) has access to the WH and GA, ... 14 ST/13 SZ the range is -R+ (Good, Great or Tremendous), something which Street Legal pointed out and I initially overlooked. Instead of adding the last point to ST, you choose to add it to SP, which at 11 SP, provides very little benefit for a Striker.


11 SP vs 14 ST in terms of skills? Go with the larger benefits... okay. I get that. Only I thought that higher SP, regardless of skills (or if you prefer, in ADDITION to whatever skills SP brings to the table) helps out a ST, PS, or SL quite a bit. Apparently --- not so much as I thought.

I've read a lot of articles since returning after a decade hiatus. Even so, these past few years I feel like I'm horribly out of synch. I was beginning to think that I was getting some kind of a handle on things, but then... well, I'm learning. Slowly.

Thanks for the insight. I'll add that to my collection of personal notes and addendums. Wink

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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

KidArcane wrote:
This is why I generally (though not always) use the forum to bounce ideas around re: rollups. There is an undefined 'sense of judgement' that I lack and can't seem to acquire. Case in point:

Looking at what you guys are writing, it seems that everyone is heading over to Terrablood's site (or you have your own calculators) and you're designing this fighter with one primary goal in mind --- how many skills can I get? or, Which design gives the most OFFENSIVE skills? Confused

Looking at the numbers it's obvious (even to a veteran noob like myself) that it has to be an offensive type because of the low CN, and given the low WL it's gonna be a Striker. Okay, follow you guys so far...

But why didn't anyone push for the 13 ST? I thought that access to the WH or Greataxe was important due to the numerous APA-scum types out there? Given that this is a ST and not a finesse style, doesn't it seem that the DF is already higher than it needs to be? Wouldn't adding to ST to at least make it 13 seem like the more viable thing to do? Then add one to SP and: 13-4-13-21-9-11-13. Cool

This seemed like the most obvious incarnation, but again, my thoughts are not aligned with most managers. I'd like to know why I'm missing the boat, guys. What's the thinking here? Is this because it's bound primarily for tournament?

Okay, it boils down to this question: Are the skills gained via these various design suggestions really more important than the ability to be 'well-suited' to the WH? If so, why? Confused Would someone be willing to explain the design strategy here? I really don't get it. Cry


The GA probably falls into the lower end of the second tier weapons, maybe midpack, and the WH I'd place upper end of the second tier weapons. Going with a 3-tier system of :top notch, secondary, almost worthless.

If you look at 11 SP the only skill there is a RIP. Although the actual number in SP may play some roll we have generally found that it's more about DEC skills then it is the actual number in SP. I've had 21 WT 17 WL 6 SP Strikers that were just a beast to try and outjump because, although, the DEC skills from SP weren't there they came aplenty in WT and WL! I'd say if you have 2 warriors with 30 DEC skills, the same weapon, the same amount of encumbrance, and make the IDENTICAL roll at the beginning of the fight then yes the "actual" SP may make the difference. It also could help overcome a DEC skill or 2 if it's a large difference in SP between warriors but there is so little we know about how the "jump" is obtained it is hard to say for sure!

I know there was the thought out there at one time that the legendary "Weapon that can smash APA and the warrior inside into weird shapes" was the WH. Many have argued it is not the WH but more likely the ML or HL. To me the HL seems TOO obvious and the famously puzzle loving programmer of the game would not make such a comment when the HL would be the easy guess. It very well could still be the WH but it also may be the ML ... or the MA or the HL or... ?? !

The SC, if not the best, is so close to the best weapon against APA using it is the standard "go-to"!

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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

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Last edited by Street_Legal on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stik
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Wow, loving all the posts on this rollup, thanks guys! Street you get the A+ for extra effort on this one!

I think I WILL go with the 14-4-13-21-9-10-13 version. I don't like giving up the extra ATT or DEF skill, but I know if he pulls great damage it will be well worth it. Hard to get by the good TPs and other defensives without it. If not, well, he's still not chopped liver!

I got this guy on a new sheet, first batch of new teams I've ordered in a looooonng time, and I can't resist displaying the rest of his teammates!

13-4-11-13-16-3-10

5-11-11-10-13-10-10

9-10-14-11-10-12-4

8-14-7-16-12-4-9

and this guy of course, 11-4-13-16-3-10-13!

I'm loving my options right now... Cool

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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Stik wrote:
Wow, loving all the posts on this rollup, thanks guys! Street you get the A+ for extra effort on this one!

I think I WILL go with the 14-4-13-21-9-10-13 version. I don't like giving up the extra ATT or DEF skill, but I know if he pulls great damage it will be well worth it. Hard to get by the good TPs and other defensives without it. If not, well, he's still not chopped liver!

I got this guy on a new sheet, first batch of new teams I've ordered in a looooonng time, and I can't resist displaying the rest of his teammates!

13-4-11-13-16-3-10

5-11-11-10-13-10-10

9-10-14-11-10-12-4

8-14-7-16-12-4-9

and this guy of course, 11-4-13-16-3-10-13!

I'm loving my options right now... Cool


Alright my first A+ in ages! Laughing

I'm going to give a quick "first blush" opinion on these guys and will repost if my gut instincts are overridden by my brain!

13-4-11-13-16-3-10 -----> 13-4-11-17-21-6-11 LU/SL/ST. I'd lean towards SL but for me I struggle with the style so I'm guessing you could better run it as a SL than could I. This is a toughie since it doesn't have tremendous DEC for a standard offensive but then it is lacking CN for a defensive. I could see making it a ST since it starts 9/10 (ATT/DEC). The only reason I place it third is because your looking at a 15 ATT-LU or a 13 ATT-SL so those are hard to turn down!

5-11-11-10-13-10-10 -----> 9-11-11-15-17-10-11 PL/LU/WS. Kind of on the lower end of what most prefer for a LU ,I'm fine with it, and lower than I like for a WS so I figure it makes a good option to go PL with it. The generally longer fights will help it learn better than your average 15 WT you'd hope!

9-10-14-11-10-12-4 -----> 9-10-14-17-15-12-7 SL. Me and some alliance mates noticed we seemed to get a disproportionate amount of SLs who were 17 WT 12 SP 7 DF that came back bonused. So If it doesn't scream something else to me, and this one doesn't demand anything in particular, I make all my guys who can get those numbers a SL! Just about all at least Cool

8-14-7-16-12-4-9 ----> 10-14-7-21-17-4-11 LU/WS. Looks like a fairly good, almost prototypical "Tank LU" or a damn pretty 21 WT-WS! I see so few guys that can be both a WS and have a 21 WT that it's hard not to make it my first choice but I'll lean toward LU since it's a 21 WT, it's slow but it has 14 CN, and the DEF that LUs learn (paired with that WT) will make this guy hard to beat; 15 ATT and 12 INI don't hurt either!

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Stik
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

quick update, this guy came back 14-4-13-21-9-10-13 ST, with great damage! Twisted Evil

I'll likely run him in the fall rookies. I don't run many strikers at the moment as I am trying to TV with several other styles, but this guy may be worth playing with!

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