Hello

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:29 am

these goofy smilely things are annoying... the above post should have read Talcama (eightteen)

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

I´m rather fond of Riztab (12) and Bonsur (7). Bonsur is going to be pretty bloody competitive, as the Frothingslosh Syndicate will be having 99 Bottles of Beer II there after the Mail-In, and a good number of new teams have arrived to compete.

If you´re into slower arenas, Caleam (26) is rather placid, with only about 6 full-time teams and a couple one-warrior teams.

Of course, you´ll have to deal with me if you take any of my suggestions....

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:11 pm

Thanks, I´ll read over the newsletters and get a good look at what I´m up against.

I started in Riztab and had teams in Talcama and Sunset my first go around so those are extra tempting anyway. I´ve looked at Riztab some before and was impressed that it was a full sized arena where you´re almost bound to get some of the match-ups for style you look for. Seemed like a lot of teams didn´t play last time..., I don´t remember as much about 18 and 21, have to see if there´s something for these darn ABs to fight.

If the closures are done, which I thought when I read the dates too, it´s really odd that the arena they just put me in is on the list on the front page, #46. Am I missing something?

I´m sure you´ll be tough (unless you get hit) if I´m in yours Kage but it´s always good to have someone/thing to shoot for, there´s bound to be at least one top player in most arenas and if all else fails that´s why they give you avoids. No?

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

Heh

I wouldn´t call myself a top player. Years ago, maybe. Now? I simply call myself "fairly good" and leave it at that.

And don´t just avoid the good warriors - they´re usually the ones who can also teach well, so if you have an advantageous matchup, go for it.

I´ll drop LHI a note to remove Ardivent from the list of closed arenas on the login page, since that one´s up and kicking.

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:12 am

This looks familiar. The size 5 AB got offed in a five minute random match-up fight with a guy in his 14th fight. Three kill desire no help. I´ll put the replacement up for advice/scorn but this isn´t doing anything to convince me that con is wasted...

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:12 am

This looks familiar. The size 5 AB got offed in a five minute random match-up fight with a guy in his 14th fight. Three kill desire no help. I´ll put the replacement up for advice/scorn but this isn´t doing anything to convince me that con is wasted...

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

Sure it is. How many skills do you get from con? All it does is help endurance a bit, and make you take longer to go desparate. Once you´re desperate, the winning warrior makes "kill checks" based on HIS will and KD; if he passes, your warrior dies, and the game goes into "cleanup" mode - that´s when you see swing-hit-swing-hit-swing-hit-swing-hit until dead. He actually died at the intent statement, however. If the my guy passes the check, then your guy´s con doesn´t matter - he´s still dead.

All con does for offensives is waste points - if I need the endurance, I´ll put them into strength instead.

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:29 am

Difficult to accept on an experiential basis. You mean anytime a desperation tactic has worked it´s been the other warrior who failed his kill desire check? How about the game operators statements on the site that kills are harder than they used to be due to arenamaster intervention and whatever else they gave (I remember there were two reasons given but not what the second was).

My first set of fights included a striker against a TP of mine. The TP is terrible and I´m just making him up for the wildest DA fight I can while pulling in a few sleazy wins with his 21 con. First minute he´s coming all out and scattering hits, so even though I parry only every other one I´m not desperate. End of minute one he starts making will checks to keep fighting. Fight goes four or five minutes and on his slower numbers he finally starts to hit the same spot (RL) repeatedly. Desperation kicks in end of min 2 or start of min 3. I dodge one shot on the new numbers and everything else hits. Why does the fight end with me "on the verge of shock" and not dead? 21 con on a 14 size against an exhausted warrior attacking the leg or his kill desire? Hard to understand the purpose of programming such that your numbers and even tactics/skills don´t matter if you go desperate.

Why, in this case, should con be unimportant only to offensive warriors? The defensives don´t actually need better endurance since they fight much slower and will outlast the offensives given equal numbers anyway. The points can go to will and str for that matter, platemail might avoid the desperation all together...(OK, I can guess maybe. Just like the plate, the higher con also keeps them from going desperate sometimes)

So it´s only coincidence that the lowest hp warrior died when he got beat? Any of the others would have died against the same fighter. Really need to hunt for a matchup advantage somewhere then before any bloodfueding... Of course, since it took like five minutes he´s probably a waste or something similar so if he took hits I can always try the 21 st version. (In plate)

So, would you fight a guy you could make say, 17-10-3-15-11-11-17? I was looking over the skills (and damage/encumberance/endurance with con raises) and thought there´d be some wins for a TP, WOS or maybe even PR (which is the least fought warrior style, almost no arena has a winning PR record over the last 10 turns)

Why don´t WOS do better anyway? Second best parry adjustment and better attack adj then any of the ´parry´ warriors, number two in initiative to slashers....Is it all about losing points to endurance stats? I´ll have more questions (and please the diety and the US mail my new roll-ups) tomorrow.

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

Well, to go through your post point by point:

The kill desire check is indicated when one warrior makes an "intent" statement. That is telling you that the game just rolled against his WL and KD to determine if he managed to get the kill - if that check passes, you´ll see it followed by a series of non-critical attacks and hits. No misses, no bonus damage, nothing. Just swings and hits until the loser keels over. Even a Blademaster Attack warrior will throw nothing but normal attacks in that situation.

THAT has nothing to do with the defending warrior or his con - the con simply indicates how many hit points a warrior has, and various checks (mainly will) are made as he reaches certain points. Being on the verge of shock doesn´t seem to have any real bearing on a fight - at most, it means that a warrior has serious penalties to his skills and will checks, and is about to lose by default. Arenamaster intervention and the other non-fatal results are simply an in-game interpretation of them lowering the chance to kill an opponent, most likely through raising the hit point level where a warrior automatically concedes. Another change you don´t know about: back in 85 or 86, it used to be that the fight would show an intent statement, and then (if successful) that the loser had been slain. The "cleanup" routine was added in after the game had been around a while.

FYI - Infirmary deaths indicate that your warrior either took more damage than he had hit points, or at the very least took nearly his full HP in damage and failed a will check. They tend to happen when a warrior who just wouldn´t give up loses a fight to a massive damage hit.

As to the TP, high con TP´s always do well in the beginning. Offensives don´t really have the skills to cut through their defenses before running out of endurance - that´s just the reality of the game. Take those same 21 con TP´s to the champs, however, and they´re generally getting thrashed by everyone. Personally, I normally only shoot for "Can take a lot" in the hit point category for a TP, and I´m running one now who just got normal hit points through a con raise. As I said, the shock thing is mostly flavor - practically every fight won through damage has the loser on the verge of shock.

The reason to not bother with con on warriors is this:

If they lose, the con is irrelevant to the kill check.
Con does NOT give skills
Con´s effect on endurance is the same as ST, and ST gives skills/damage
Low con allows more points in important area

Do yourself a favor. Go to groups.yahoo.com and look up the Duel group. That´s the Duelmasters Round Table - a mailing list. They´re always discussing warrior designs, so just keep your eyes open and watch the designs they propose, especially:

Ferretoi (Manray Frothingslosh)
Otto X (Otto Frothingslosh)
Manager
Neon Necromancer
Jason Ives (Another slosher, I think Chazz)

and any number of others. If you´re friends with any big names, talk about the stats of the successful warriors. You´ll find a common theme - most of the successful offensives tend to have low cons. Don´t throw out a warrior just because he has high con, but never add points to con (I don´t see a problem with adding a point when all other numbers are odd, but some do).

Oh, and plate armor doesn´t always help, either - remember that 21 con striker I told you my lunger beat the hell out of? He was in APA+F that fight, using a sword and his favorite weapon, the small shield. My guy never missed, and still put him down at the beginning of the second minute. I could transcribe the fight if I really had to. Now a 21 CN lunger can work, but only because lungers learn defense early.

As to keeping warriors alive (and I fail to see why it´s so imperative - if they die, they die, and nothing can change it.), con matters far less than winning. Fact of the game - warriors can´t die in a fight they win. It´s just how the game works, and warriors with high wit/will but low con win far, far more than warriors with moderate values in all three. Look at my team in 25 sometime - 4 of the 5 on that team have 5 con or less, yet the warrior records are

9-4-2
4-1-1
3-1-0
2-1-0
1-3-1

Note that the last guy is slow as hell - 6´10, tremendous damage, only 6 starting decise. Slow and frail is NOT a good combination, and unless his performance turns around soon (he´s learning 4 skills/fight), he´s going to the DA.

Now, that guy: 17-10-3-15-11-11-17? I´d DA him. Slow skill learns, will is a terrible value (9 or 15; 11 is no better than 9 and wastes 2 points). Now if I could field this one: 17-3-3-21-17-10-13, I´d be in heaven.

Wastes don´t do all that well because they can´t riposte, they don´t learn riposte, and the two worst styles for them to face are lunger and slasher. Lungers are everywhere, and slashers are awfully common as well. Unless it´s a bizarre waste with a favorite learn of riposte, that´ll be the last skill area they bother learning, and it´ll cost them against EVERYONE eventually. I have one in Andorak - 17(4)-15(3)-4-17-21-4-13 who has 112 skills learned. 7 of his remaining 8 skills are riposte, and he currently has 18 total. His attack is nearly Grandmaster, his parry is well past Advanced Master, and his defense is a high Master as well. Out of his last 5 fights, he´s managed to swing in two of them - and most go 3-5 minutes with him running 6-4-x. That lack of riposte is killing him. He can take a lot, has tremendous endurance, and walks out in APA, but it doesn´t help. One big reason he´ll never dominate Gateway is because wastes CANNOT be bonused in defense, and parries are generally futile at that level.

If you want, here are my current aimed blows:

5-9-10-15-15-9-21
9-6-10-21-11-10-17

Compare their skills to your guy - mine generally have much higher attack and higher defense, at the expense of a little parry. (I´m only running the first because he´s got some rather impressive skill bonuses.) Your guy might beat some of the lesser TP´s and the s*****, but a good offensive TP would be a threat, a good PR would be dangerous (and they DO exist!), and pretty much any waste would annihilate him.

Anyway, like I suggested above, do yourself a favor and join the Round Table. That way you could hear from a bunch of skilled managers rather than just debate with me.

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:04 am

Sorry you felt I had made it a debate. I don´t doubt you know about the things you talk about but sometimes I simply don´t understand the first time you bring a subject up.

In any case, if you have a minute I´d certainly appreciate a simple analysis of what you´d do with two of my newbie team. One looks like a second rate version of your examples and the other comes up one point short (too much con, I guess) of any way I´d prefer to start him.

13-5-15-10-9-12-6
(15-5-15-15-15-12-7?13-6-15-15-9-15-11?)

5-10-12-12-10-13-8
(9-10-12-17-15-13-8?)

I´ll keep my reactions, if any, to myself.

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

Debate, discussion, whatever you want to call it. It´s all good.

I was just saying that you should join the Round Table so as to get the benefit of more than one opinion.

#1) To be honest, I´d DA him. If I *HAD* to run him, I´d go 15-5-15-15-15-12-7, probably BA (ST is an option, too).

#2) Bah, too much con, size, speed - your choice. I´d likely go 8-10-12-17-15-13-9 LU, raise ST to 9 for SS. DA if skill hosed or learning is below 2/turn.

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 11:26 pm

Thanks, at least they were the least fightable of the lot. I probably will fight them at least a few turns as I´ve gotten so many worse choices to work with I´m leary of throwing away the ´just short´ ones until I´m sure none of them came up as a fluke something in the program loved.

How do you feel about 21 wills? If you could make a lunger with a 17 and 2 or 3 more skills in his base (but no more wit) which would you choose?

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Jul 11, 2002 Posts: 165

If you can give a warrior 21 wit or will, do so.

Period.

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:38 pm

yes, 21 wills rock. But 21 wt/wl is the cat´s meow

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 11:25 pm

Thanks, and good. I was pretty much decided on doing it but for some reason the two skills extra were praying on my mind. Haven´t got one yet I could give a 21 wit even without the will this time through but it´s only 11 chances so far. Only one overview below size 9 cuts the other stats.

You must be getting something Ultraist, I was reading up to decide between 12 and 21 for the new teams arena and caught your 9-1-0 TP duelmaster who´s already going to the isle. (You´ve got a PR who´s killing them too, right?) Be glad to have those two gone if I choose 21.