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Sentinel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Rillion wrote:
Well my random match up with your guy was a really crappy random for my guy, so without your guy in there I would have had better odds of winning since your warriors pretty much own mine.


No offense, but if you lost to an AB with 2 defense learns, then I'm suspecting there aren't many warriors you can beat and the matchups wouldn't have hurt/helped much <grin>.

But because of that very predictable argument and to make you feel better, see my feelings above RE: 4 points.

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Pauly
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Managerr wrote:
Quote:
Looking at the results, we're tied for sixth. That's near top 5. Damn near. I like to call it striking distance. Then once we crack the top five we're in, what, of first place? You got it. Striking distance. That's my whole strategy. Stay in striking distance. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You'd think the TOGS I champ would know that.


As the first TOGS Champion, I also know that no TOGS team not in the Top 3 after the first turn has ever gone on to win a TOGS Championship...


There's only been 5 TOGSes. That's really not much of sample size.

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Managerr
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Given the close finish of the past couple of TOGS--you really can't blame people for playing the "butterfly effect" card. Every point matters--that much is proven in TOGS.
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nuln
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:
Yes, imagine my surprise when I saw the newsletter. First of all, I would hope that it's patently obvious to everyone that I obviously didn't run this team on purpose or try to interfere with the TOGS. I intended to point it out this morning to put in a "mea culpa," but honestly don't see it as any big issue as it was an accident, no challenges were made, and the impact was non-existent or negligible.

What happened is that I emailed RSI this week to put my team on maintenance to ensure that I didn't miss any turns during TOGS and the wrong team was put on maintenance (subsequently fixed). No challenges, avoids, or strategies were submitted for this team.

I'll give you my take on this as a contestant and observer as any official capacity I may have needs to be put aside.
-- Ensure that the issue gets resolved to ensure the team does not run again
-- It was an accident
-- No challenges were issued to interfere with the TOGS
-- The affected warriors already didn't get their challenges through, so this is just like a random with any other non-TOGS warrior.
-- At the farthest stretch of an impact, I could see trying to make the case that somehow that the affected warriors may have won if they didn't fight the devastating Death Studs and wanting to assign 4 points as if they'd won the fight.

It makes the most sense to me to leave things as is, but if people want the affected fighters to be issued 4 points and Nuln decides that is the right thing to do, I don't have any issue with that although it seems unnecessary.

For what it's worth, that's my unbiased take and exactly how I would feel in an accidental case like this regardless of who it was.


Oh sure, ask me to come back and co-commish TOGS with Craig, tell me I'll be sharing the responsibilities with the two of you, and now first turn in you create a controversy that only *I* can resolve. I think I should get 4 points for the emotional trauma this sure to be fiasco puts me through, what do you think of that? Wink

I'll have to confer with my attorney in the morning and get back to y'all.

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Rillion
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:

No offense, but if you lost to an AB with 2 defense learns, then I'm suspecting there aren't many warriors you can beat and the matchups wouldn't have hurt/helped much <grin>.

But because of that very predictable argument and to make you feel better, see my feelings above RE: 4 points.


Hey, I got to try to get points anyway I can since I'm not resorting to cheating... Smile
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well, well .......
As expected, the alternatives roar.
Some want points for fighting the team that should not have run.
Some say - skip the round.
Some say give The Stud a zero.
Some say DQ the offender.
Some are afraid to say what they really think.
Some say, it is all a mistake, let it go......

THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A VERY DISGUSTING TOPIC TO US.
We do not know what is the right "fix", but this issue will never satisfy everyone, and the slight "taint" will prevail through to the end.

It is somewhat bothersome that some will accept that this was just all a mistake - and only RSI's at that. We all have responsibilities in this TOGS. Get the turns in (maintenance?). Get the spots and personals in. (backup and get Sue confirmation.) Not run teams/warriors if one has a duplicate. (get them off maintenence and get confirmation.) RSI, or not, we still have the responsibility to make it happen.

Perhaps it is unfair of us, but we expect the leaders/coordinators/scorers of the event to be "perfect" if they are also competing. If necessary, we would have expected the maintenence to have been lifted a turn ago - just to be able to confirm there would be no problem. Anything else simply adds doubt to the veracity of the whole.

Sure, we are sorry to see this mess created. Sure, we would be penitent and unequivicable if we had caused this ourselves. Sure, Travis is a great friend and comrade. Sure we think he should continue playing. Sure, we were the first to say "accidental". Sure TOGS is still the greatest event in Alastari.

Simply put, we have a mess right here in River City.

As the final word, Nuln will soon rule. We will accept and live by TOGS on his decision. He da man. But will the taint ever fade away?

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1000 ADM graduates (with 40+ manager IDs) including 105K+ fights and 68K+ wins plus 4 teams with 1000+ wins (Animal Farm DM11 @1518*; Bulldogs DM11 @ 1460; Lenpros DM30 @ 1424; Fandils @ 1336
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Elephant
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sentinel wrote:
It makes the most sense to me to leave things as is, but if people want the affected fighters to be issued 4 points and Nuln decides that is the right thing to do, I don't have any issue with that although it seems unnecessary.
This was a honest mistake. There were no challenges issued on the affected warriors, so if the affected warrior would've won, they would've received the points for beating a nonTOGS warrior in a random match up. I don't think any points should be awarded to a warrior that lost.
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Sentinel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The Consortium wrote:
Well, well .......
As expected, the alternatives roar.
Some want points for fighting the team that should not have run.
Some say - skip the round.
Some say give The Stud a zero.
Some say DQ the offender.
Some are afraid to say what they really think.
Some say, it is all a mistake, let it go......

THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A VERY DISGUSTING TOPIC TO US.
We do not know what is the right "fix", but this issue will never satisfy everyone, and the slight "taint" will prevail through to the end.

It is somewhat bothersome that some will accept that this was just all a mistake - and only RSI's at that. We all have responsibilities in this TOGS. Get the turns in (maintenance?). Get the spots and personals in. (backup and get Sue confirmation.) Not run teams/warriors if one has a duplicate. (get them off maintenence and get confirmation.) RSI, or not, we still have the responsibility to make it happen.

Perhaps it is unfair of us, but we expect the leaders/coordinators/scorers of the event to be "perfect" if they are also competing. If necessary, we would have expected the maintenence to have been lifted a turn ago - just to be able to confirm there would be no problem. Anything else simply adds doubt to the veracity of the whole.

Sure, we are sorry to see this mess created. Sure, we would be penitent and unequivicable if we had caused this ourselves. Sure, Travis is a great friend and comrade. Sure we think he should continue playing. Sure, we were the first to say "accidental". Sure TOGS is still the greatest event in Alastari.

Simply put, we have a mess right here in River City.

As the final word, Nuln will soon rule. We will accept and live by TOGS on his decision. He da man. But will the taint ever fade away?


Well, this is where we get into some real trouble. If anyone has honest concerns about the integrity of me or the TOGS, then that is a real issue. I don't want there to be any doubt in anyone's mind that everything is on the up and the up with the TOGS in a way that impacts their enjoyment or may impact future participation.

Let's separate the hyperbole and the teasing from honest concerns about integrity and I would like to know--all kidding aside--if anyone has concerns that something was intentional here and that the integrity of the contest is somehow compromised.

Because if so, then I'm concerned about that. If not, then this Manageresque hysteria hyping isn't helping anything and is potentially influencing future participants over, basically, nothing.

Please sound off anyone with serious concerns.

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Managerr
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think you're too smart to do something intentional like this. I have a few concerns:

- Not intentional does not mean non-negligent. If your email to Sandy was a short "Can you put my team on maintenance?" then of course there is a high chance that she would screw up that request. (But that's easily investigated)
- If you get with no penalty at all--that might encourage others to do shenanigans in the future---with the idea that as long as you can pin it on RSI, then nothing will happen to you.
- Next TOGS, there needs to be a non-FONZ co-commmish, since (to me), it's pretty clear where the lines have been drawn. (That this is potentially a big deal vs. not a big deal--I think we're all in agreement now that Travis did nothing intentional)

Quote:
Because if so, then I'm concerned about that. If not, then this Manageresque hysteria hyping isn't helping anything and is potentially influencing future participants over, basically, nothing.


Having an open an honest discussion and willing to listen to all concerns can only help participation in the future (even if we can't resolve every issue), if this is swept under the rug and someone feels screwed over this and lets it bubble--that will affect future participation.
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Hammer_Minister_of_War
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Let's separate the hyperbole and the teasing from honest concerns about integrity and I would like to know--all kidding aside--if anyone has concerns that something was intentional here and that the integrity of the contest is somehow compromised.

Because if so, then I'm concerned about that. If not, then this Manageresque hysteria hyping isn't helping anything and is potentially influencing future participants over, basically, nothing.

Please sound off anyone with serious concerns.[/quote]


RE: TOGS Tumult

I do not think running 2 teams was intentional, but this should have been avoided a turn or two ago!

This is the very reason why I usually run a P-ad on the 2nd turn of a contest requesting the identities of the Managers and their Stables!

YES the Ingtegrity of the contest is COMPROMISED in My Opinion Because the Random Match Ups would have Shaken Out Differently with the Absence of this 2nd team!

Again, I Believe the Problem was Unintentional although I am Convinced that the Integrity of the contest has been compromised to the point that I myself was considering withdrawing from the contest, but will stick around for Street's sake because I know what it is like to have a Partner fail to show for a contest you were looking forward to participating in!

Because of the stand that Darque took to NOT Compromise the original rules in any way, shape or form in Arena 45 [which Directly Affected My Participation!] I would be inclined to participate in a future StormCrowe SlaughterHouse contest hosted by Darque!

Such matters as this recurrent development in TOGS and a few others in some other arenas is why I quit sponsoring contests!

After the fiasco in Arena 66 and now this I am quite certain that I will be refraining from participating in any future TOGS contests!

The reason is that after something gets compromised on the first or second cycle of a contest then the enjoyment of participating in the contest seemingly erodes with each successive turn!


Especially with all the banter on the Forum posts!

I will abide by what the TOGS mediators decide, but with the taste of taint in my mouth from yet another contest squabble!

Respectfully,

Hammer

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JGW
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Elephant wrote:
Sentinel wrote:
It makes the most sense to me to leave things as is, but if people want the affected fighters to be issued 4 points and Nuln decides that is the right thing to do, I don't have any issue with that although it seems unnecessary.
This was a honest mistake. There were no challenges issued on the affected warriors, so if the affected warrior would've won, they would've received the points for beating a nonTOGS warrior in a random match up. I don't think any points should be awarded to a warrior that lost.


That might be true except in the case where two of these warriors could have matched up. I'm not about to look at last turn's newsletter to see if they could have matched due to classes.

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GreekGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The only problem I see is in the end if a team loses by 4 points or less then they could have an argument that those points in turn one made a difference. Will this be the case...no one will know for 12 more turns. Obviously my partners team was affected by one fight. Who knows if those 4 points will make a difference or not...most likely not but if they do will we raise a stink...absolutely.
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Elephant
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:56 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hammer_Minister_of_War wrote:

RE: TOGS Tumult

I do not think running 2 teams was intentional, but this should have been avoided a turn or two ago!
Not really. Travis was probably trying to set his FE for the other team. Or maybe he just felt like running the team up until TOGS. It's was his choice to run, it was RSI's honest mistake.

Hammer_Minister_of_War wrote:

This is the very reason why I usually run a P-ad on the 2nd turn of a contest requesting the identities of the Managers and their Stables!

YES the Ingtegrity of the contest is COMPROMISED in My Opinion Because the Random Match Ups would have Shaken Out Differently with the Absence of this 2nd team!

Again, I Believe the Problem was Unintentional although I am Convinced that the Integrity of the contest has been compromised to the point that I myself was considering withdrawing from the contest, but will stick around for Street's sake because I know what it is like to have a Partner fail to show for a contest you were looking forward to participating in!

Because of the stand that Darque took to NOT Compromise the original rules in any way, shape or form in Arena 45 [which Directly Affected My Participation!] I would be inclined to participate in a future StormCrowe SlaughterHouse contest hosted by Darque!

Such matters as this recurrent development in TOGS and a few others in some other arenas is why I quit sponsoring contests!

After the fiasco in Arena 66 and now this I am quite certain that I will be refraining from participating in any future TOGS contests!

The reason is that after something gets compromised on the first or second cycle of a contest then the enjoyment of participating in the contest seemingly erodes with each successive turn!


Especially with all the banter on the Forum posts!

I will abide by what the TOGS mediators decide, but with the taste of taint in my mouth from yet another contest squabble!

Respectfully,

Hammer
If you really feel this contest is compromised and tainted, the I would strongly encourage you to go with your gut and withdraw. Iím really not wanting to hear you blow this whole thing out of proportion for 12 more turns. This is going to be 81 all over again with you overacting.

People letís be reasonable here. It was a honest mistake by RSI and 4 warriors were affected. Of the 4, one was a teammate of the team in question. What's Pip, Rillion, Street and Soultaker's feelings here? You four were the ones that were affected.

Unless you host a contest in a closed arena, there's always a chance of outside interference. I was challenge by a nonTOGS team and won, yet I get no points. Nothing I can do about that expect move on. There will be more challenges by nonTOGS teams I'm sure before this contest is over. There's a good chance that there will be more losses to nonTOGS teams in a random matchup before this is all over. That's part of the game. Unless there's a pattern, I don't see a problem.
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Hammer_Minister_of_War
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I will abide by what the TOGS mediators decide, but with the taste of taint in my mouth from yet another contest squabble!

Respectfully,

Hammer[/quote] If you really feel this contest is compromised and tainted, the I would strongly encourage you to go with your gut and withdraw. Iím really not wanting to hear you blow this whole thing out of proportion for 12 more turns. This is going to be 81 all over again with you overacting.


Apparently my wording has skewed my meaning!

The taste of taint in my mouth refers to leaving a bad taste in my mouth over this whole issue!

Where you get the idea that I am going to waste my time and energy for 12 turns belly aching about this is beyond me!

We were encouraged to speak up and I did so!

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_sandman_
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hammer_Minister_of_War wrote:
YES the Ingtegrity of the contest is COMPROMISED in My Opinion Because the Random Match Ups would have Shaken Out Differently with the Absence of this 2nd team!



Respectfully,

Hammer


The integrity of the contest is compromised? Because of a mistake? Hmmm...then how would you characterize the challenging of one PR run by a Free Blades manager by another PR run by another Free Blades manager on the last turn of the contest in 66? Doesn't that fly in the face of the spirit of that contest? Hmm? Hello, pot, the kettle is calling!
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