Hurt that badly by the random factor?

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

I just received a character sheet today and some things just aren't adding up, so I'm hoping you guys can give your opinion.

After the 14 adds, he looked like this:

10-7-8-11-14-14-20. TP.

Since i sent in the first turn without seeing the roll-up results, I only got the char. sheet back after succeeding in raising my DFT in the first fight, so the stats on the character sheet are as stated, but the DFT does say:
"21 Increase=1" (assuming of course this is the new way of showing 21(1)).

Here's the rest of the char sheet:

Right Handed

Makes good dueling decisions
is gifted at parrying
makes few mistakes

is a QUICK Fighter

is VERY HIGHLY COORDINATED
with the ability to use a weapon in each hand

has POOR Endurance

is VERY FRAIL [Etc]

CANNOT CARRY A LOT [etc..]

Is VERY QUICK on feet
often avoiding hopeless situations
[and then the stats are listed, WITH the 1 point increase in DFT].
==========================================

Okay, now here's what's really bothering me about this char., and it's not the Frail, or the endurance of the Carry Cap. I expected all of that.

What's bothering me is both the:

"Is a QUICK" fighter", which, according to all the Terrablood charts shows this is a char with INIT+RIP<=19, and if I'm CORRECT, that's AFTER getting a 4 point boost in the two by moving DFT from 20 to 21, which means there are some 7 to 9 points missing from his initial INIT+RIP (depending upon which generator you use).

I KNOW there's some randomness no matter WHAT numbers you put in initially, but, no matter what, raising the DFT from 20 to 21 DID NOT make any apparent impact (and again, all the Terrablood charts seem to say going from 20 to 21 in DFT should make a significant difference in both the QUICKNESS areas. He should've had a "Very Quick to start with, not Quick, and even if he did, the raise in DFT should have changed that category, AND should have changed the VERY QUICK from "often avoiding hopeless situations" to "making even dangerous opponents seem harmless," but the fight sheet showing the increase said the raise made no real impact).

So, this is where my initial question comes in. Does this character just suffer from some extremely terrible random effects upon roll-up? Or were rhe character comments from BEFORE the DFT increase, and if they were, why didn't the fight sheet say that raise helped?

I mean, if a TP has a DFT of 21, but can neither achieve "INCREDIBLY QUICK" nor "INCREDIBLY QUICK making even dangerous opponents seem harmless" then THAT'S a character I would normally burn.

If I'm right about that, please let me know OR
If I'm WRONG about that, please let me know. Other TPs I've modeled after this normally do extremely well AND match pretty closely the stats from Terrablood, or are at least close. THIS character's aren't, and aren't on the EXTREMELY low side, so,

What's the Verdict?

Sorry 'bout the length and thanks in advance for the help.

ART
aka The_Chief

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Apr 15, 2004 Posts: 2958

The_Chief wrote:

So, this is where my initial question comes in. Does this character just suffer from some extremely terrible random effects upon roll-up? Or were rhe character comments from BEFORE the DFT increase, and if they were, why didn't the fight sheet say that raise helped?

The quickness, activity, and wit statements on the overview only reflect the starting skill bases of the warrior. The physical statements will take trains into account.

So by my estimation, your warrior is at least -2 between Ini and Rip from the Activity Statement and because he still has the 13+ Rip wit statement, we know that he is at best -2 Ini and at least mode in Rip. Nothing else on the overview indicates to me that he is hosed. That's if you use the Bagman II chart for warrior generation, which I normally do. If you use the Terrablood chart for warrior generation, then he may only be -1 Ini.

Also, according to the chart I use for training, Terrablood, you got 2 Ini and 0 Rip from the train to 21 DF, not 2 and 2.

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

One Armed Bandit wrote:

The quickness, activity, and wit statements on the overview only reflect the starting skill bases of the warrior. The physical statements will take trains into account.

So by my estimation, your warrior is at least -2 between Ini and Rip from the Activity Statement and because he still has the 13+ Rip wit statement, we know that he is at best -2 Ini and at least mode in Rip. Nothing else on the overview indicates to me that he is hosed. That's if you use the Bagman II chart for warrior generation, which I normally do. If you use the Terrablood chart for warrior generation, then he may only be -1 Ini.

Also, according to the chart I use for training, Terrablood, you got 2 Ini and 0 Rip from the train to 21 DF, not 2 and 2.

If what you're saying is true re: the activity statement, then according to the bagmanII gen, then I was only hosed by a single level, which still sucks, but I can live with that. It would actually be a relief, however, I was also under the impression you only moved from one level in something to the next (say, from the two different "INCRED. QUICK" elusivity statements) if your stat raise mentions some kind of significant raise.

Of course, going from "avoiding hopeless...." to "making even dangerous opponents..." May not be considered a raise. That's why I'm on here asking.

My mistake on the DFT train and thinking it was +4... I was working from memory and only after you wrote that did I remember it was +9 overall and not +10 (which I did know, but was just so pissed off since I was happy to finally get some numbers I could live with in that DM, unlike most of them), but it still shows a +2 to INI and a +1 to RIP as DEF goes from 20 to 21 (so, +3, not +4). Still, as you mention, I had a the 13 Rip statement and one of the charts on Terrablood states, IIRC, you'll ONLY have a "Quick" if Rip+Ini=16-19, a VERY QUICK if they add up 20-23, and an INC QUICK if 24 to 29. As it still states QUICK on the char sheet, it means my RIP should be 14, and with my INI going up +2, it means I had to have started with a 1 INI, whereas the BagnanII generator says I should start with an INI of 8, AND had an INI statement, which I didn't.

MY point is, as I mention above, the char APPARENTLY started with an INI of 3!!! When it should have started with an INI of 8, still, a whopping -5 from the expected starting INI. That's a MAJOR handicap, no? The only way this wouldn't be true would be a) if the charts are wrong, b) if the DFT "train" was not taken into account on the char sheet, or c) the assumption that you only get a bonus statement under your train if any category raises to the next, in this case either elusivity, or activity. It's saying neither did, meaning the character was hosed both in starting INI (see below) AND in Elusivity (as, again, he didn't go from "often avoid. hoeless" to "dangerous looking harmless" as the bagmann2 generator says he should)

I'm not quite sure how you're getting a Starting INI, if I understand what you're saying correctly, as only 2 less than the norm (which would have given him a 6 INI and a 13 RIP, adding up to 19, giving him only QUICK, and NOT the "Very Quick", but again, the sheet APPEARS to be done with the DFT increase in it, which means the INI should be up to 8 and the RIP to 14 (at least according to the chart I have). THAT combination should give him a VERY QUICK, which, again, he doesn't have. Even if he only got 2 points in INI from it, and didn't gain a point in RIP, then he started with an INI of 2 through 4, still a -4 from expected starting INI at best.

I'm hoping, again, somewhere above my logic is wrong, because I really was hoping for this CHAR to do well, but starting with 4 under what the norm is in INIT, AND starting with a lower Elusivity than expected sucks no matter how you slice it.

ART aka,
The_Chief

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

The_Chief wrote:

I, it means I had to have started with a 1 INI, f

This should have said "at best a 3 INI." My apologies.

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:22 am

One Armed Bandit wrote:

The_Chief wrote:

So, this is where my initial question comes in. Does this character just suffer from some extremely terrible random effects upon roll-up? Or were rhe character comments from BEFORE the DFT increase, and if they were, why didn't the fight sheet say that raise helped?

The quickness, activity, and wit statements on the overview only reflect the starting skill bases of the warrior. The physical statements will take trains into account.

OAB has it right. The activity statements reflect the starting skills at creation. Therefore, they do NOT take into account your DF train on the first fight.

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:23 am

Madwand wrote:

One Armed Bandit wrote:

The_Chief wrote:

So, this is where my initial question comes in. Does this character just suffer from some extremely terrible random effects upon roll-up? Or were rhe character comments from BEFORE the DFT increase, and if they were, why didn't the fight sheet say that raise helped?

The quickness, activity, and wit statements on the overview only reflect the starting skill bases of the warrior. The physical statements will take trains into account.

OAB has it right. The activity statements reflect the starting skills at creation. Therefore, they do NOT take into account your DF train on the first fight.

And, with that in mind, your warrior is only slightly disadvantaged due to the roll. There is no reason to expect that it will fail or succeed other than by its own design and management.

To us it looks like a different and unusual, albeit interesting and funnin' design.

Good luck.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Apr 15, 2004 Posts: 2958

The_Chief wrote:

I, it means I had to have started with a 1 INI, f

This should have said "at best a 3 INI." My apologies.

Your warrior started with at best a 6 Ini, just to be clear.

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

The Consortium wrote:

And, with that in mind, your warrior is only slightly disadvantaged due to the roll. There is no reason to expect that it will fail or succeed other than by its own design and management.

To us it looks like a different and unusual, albeit interesting and funnin' design.

Good luck.

Which, again, is fantastic if true, and thanks for the info. What about the Elusivity statement? And is the contention "no increase from your roll-up stats has occurred if there is no statement after the increase" true?

I have no clue what a "funnin' design" is Smile

, but I'd be happy to go over the starting numbers and what I had in mind during design if anyone is interested.

I should also note ANY handicap for me is a great handicap, since I'm as close to being a brand new manager as one can be since prior to the last 2 months, the last time I played was in '86. I'm not saying you would or should feel sorry for me (absolutely do not!), just saying, from what I've heard, a handicap to someone in the "The Consortium" is a welcomed challenge, but to someone like me, it's damn near a mountain. I'll still play it, of course, but I AM a little baffled how getting +9 to your skills doesn't manage to improve anything worthy of a note.

ART aka
The_Chief

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

One Armed Bandit wrote:

The_Chief wrote:

I, it means I had to have started with a 1 INI, f

This should have said "at best a 3 INI." My apologies.

Your warrior started with at best a 6 Ini, just to be clear.

Alright, here's my reasoning and please let me know where I'm off, as I well could be. The information I'm going to write has either come to me through a chart on Terrablood, or something written to me through these boards, and my contention my INI started with at best a 3 (and at worst a 2) is based upon the following.

1. the "is Quick" indicates my warrior's INI+RIP>15 and <20 at the start.
2. the Wit statement indicates my RIP was 13+ at the start.
3. AFTER the DFT train, there was no indication of improvement in any category, despite an increase of +2 to INI and +1 to RIP. This could only happen if the following were true:
A) INI+RIP BEFORE the train >15 and <20 and
B) INI+RIP AFTER the train was STILL only >15 and <20. (Again, otherwise there would have been a "the XYZ fighter has noticely improved it's XYZ").

4) The only numbers which fit that scenario would a starting INI of 3 and Starting RIP of 13, meaning they would add up to 16 before the train and 19 after the train.

5)IF the starting INI were >3, there should have been a statement after the Deftness increase, as the character would have gone from an INI+RIP of 19 to 22.

(Yes, 4 and 5 say effectually the same thing, but each address different assumptions).

Again, I'd LOVE to know I'm wrong on this. Are the charts wrong? Or is the assertion: "You only get a statement after a successful Train if your char. goes up in a category." wrong?

Thanks again for the help.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Apr 15, 2004 Posts: 2958

That DF train has no impact on those statements.

Those statements are a reflection of the skill base, NOT of the current skill level.

If you fight him to graduation and you train 20 more stats. The statements on his ADM overview will still indicate his skill base, not his skill level at the time of graduation.

I'm not sure how to say it any clearer than that.

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:23 pm

Your quickness staement will never change no matter how many raises you do. The statements that will change for endurance, damage doing/taking, carry, encumbrance and Intellegance. If there are more I can't think of at this time

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:42 pm

You are barely hosed in Init. Not much of an issue. Read OAB carefully.IGNORE the fact that you raised DF - as your sheet would read the same whether you had or not. List te skills you should have had from the design. Review the sheet based on that. Then add the skills you got from the DF train and all will be well.

"funnin'" means looks interesting and fun - not simple and standard. E.g. - something we Consortiumites like to run and do run all the time.

P.S. We call the effects of that "random roll" mode, blessed, or hosed. Sometimes you can be both hosed and blessed.

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:48 pm

The Consortium wrote:

You are barely hosed in Init. Not much of an issue. Read OAB carefully.IGNORE the fact that you raised DF - as your sheet would read the same whether you had or not. List te skills you should have had from the design. Review the sheet based on that. Then add the skills you got from the DF train and all will be well.

"funnin'" means looks interesting and fun - not simple and standard. E.g. - something we Consortiumites like to run and do run all the time.

P.S. We call the effects of that "random roll" mode, blessed, or hosed. Sometimes you can be both hosed and blessed But in differnet areas and skills. You can be hosed INI while mode in PAR while agian bounused in END, just as an example.

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

gentleben wrote:

Your quickness staement will never change no matter how many raises you do. The statements that will change for endurance, damage doing/taking, carry, encumbrance and Intellegance. If there are more I can't think of at this time

Right... from what everyone's written, I'm crystal re: the character sheet.

Where I wasn't clear was why I didn't get a statement after the DFT increase, UNLESS the contention is you ONLY get a statement after the DFT increase if you raise your Coordination, but NOT if your INI and/or RIP increase enough such that they would signal what SHOULD be a change in the quickness statement, (IOW, INI+RIP going to, say, 22 from 19) which is what I'm assuming is the case after what you've said.

I don't think it's the best way for the game to do things, but that's not up to me Smile

.

Good seein' ya' here Ben FWIW, and thanks for the clarification.

The_Chief

Unchartered Poster Joined: Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 19

The Consortium wrote:

You are barely hosed in Init. Not much of an issue. Read OAB carefully.IGNORE the fact that you raised DF - as your sheet would read the same whether you had or not. List te skills you should have had from the design. Review the sheet based on that. Then add the skills you got from the DF train and all will be well.

"funnin'" means looks interesting and fun - not simple and standard. E.g. - something we Consortiumites like to run and do run all the time.

P.S. We call the effects of that "random roll" mode, blessed, or hosed. Sometimes you can be both hosed and blessed.

Yeah, I think I get it now. Of course I know from standard English slang what hosed or blessed is, and as Ben states above, and I've seen in other characters, a char. can be hosed in one area and blessed in another at times.

Thanks, I think, for the "funnin" statement. Playing characters which AREN'T funnin would be completely, uh, unfunnunin (NOT fun and NOT interesting Smile

) IMO, and thus not worth playing, Smile

As you may have guessed, the INT was 5 on the initial roll-up. I put in the full 6. I'd have MUCH preferred either the Speed OR Will be swapped with the INT, but didn't have that choice, hence this character is going to be based around Stat raises, not Skill training--the first character I've ever made like that, which is why it was so absolutely important for me to understand what the messages one receives under an attribute raise or lack thereof mean or don't mean.

Once again, thanks.

The_Chief