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Duel2 :: View topic - Low Dexterity Warriors
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KidArcane
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay, so I'm running a couple of low DF guys. I'm not really sure I understand what that means in the context of this game. In my mind's eye, I see someone fumbling around trying to figure out which end is the sharp one and which one is the handle... but in D-2 it seems that this merely indicates how few skills a warrior starts out with, and what weapon choices he is limited to... and it may not even mean that!

Since I'm out of my depth here, can someone throw me some pointers or insights or thoughts re: low DF fighters? How low is too low? My guys have a 9 DF, which is as low as I feel comfortable with (mostly having to do with the weapon choices) but I know some guys run 'em much lower than that! So --- what styles can handle low DF and which ones can't? (Aside from AB or PR, I mean.) And how does one run them? Differently from the norm, or not? Or is it wiser to simply NOT run such fighters to begin with??

Anything you can toss me is appreciated! Smile

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Darque
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

KidArcane wrote:
So --- what styles can handle low DF and which ones can't? (Aside from AB or PR, I mean.) And how does one run them? Differently from the norm, or not? Or is it wiser to simply NOT run such fighters to begin with??

Anything you can toss me is appreciated! Smile


Here are my general rules of thumb for the various styles:

AB -- I do have a 3 DFT AB, but it was for research. I don't suggest it--EVER! 17 and 21 is usually the norm for most and I know some managers will not make one with anything other than a 21.

BA -- I make these with low DFT all the time. Some of the bashing weapons have low requirements. I have run 3, 5, and 7 on this style. 7 is probably the most common for my warriors.

LU -- I've run as low as 3 on LU. 7 isn't uncommon for mine, but it depends on the other stats.

PL -- I've heard people going low on this style, but 11 is usually my break point. I would consider going lower, but WL and STR would have to be pretty high for the Parry skills to make it worthy my while.

PR -- Once again and for very much the same reason as PL, 11 is my break point. They do have better ATT, so I could see myself making a 7 or 9 DFT one if other things were right. My particular way of running them though lends to 11+ DFT.

PS -- 11 is my break point for them as well. Their bases are so low that I feel anything lower would be too much of a detriment.

SL -- Very much the same as LU, but with SL you want DEC and ATT skills (DEC more than ATT). 7 is the most common for me, though I like 11 if possible and everything else is just right. The x-x-x-17-21-14-7 are very common SL set ups in my stables (or even switch the WIT and WILL).

TP -- Depends on the set up. For scum I don't particularly care. For OTPs and the like, 11 is once again the break point, though higher is better.

WS -- Once again depends on the warrior. If I'm going offensive with the set up, I'll go as low as 7. If I'm making a parry beast, then I want DFT for the skills.

I of course break all of these guidelines above depending on circumstances. These are however very general rules for looking at it. For me, DFT can be sacrificed at times for physicals. 11 is usually good breakpoint for me with most designs and styles. It is just a matter of maximizing the strengths of a particular RU.

Hope it helps.

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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Our thoughts are not much different than Darque's.
We are quite willing to experiment and find ways to win with allegedly out-of-bounds warriors.
style - most common - low end DF normally usable
AB - 21 - 17
BA - 7 - 3
LU - 11 - 3
PL - 11 - 11
PR - 11 - 11
PS - 11 - 7
SL - 11 - 7
ST - 11 - 7
TP - 10 - 3
WS - 11 - 11

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Longshot
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Consortium wrote:
Our thoughts are not much different than Darque's.
We are quite willing to experiment and find ways to win with allegedly out-of-bounds warriors.
style - most common - low end DF normally usable
AB - 21 - 17
BA - 7 - 3
LU - 11 - 3
PL - 11 - 11
PR - 11 - 11
PS - 11 - 7
SL - 11 - 7
ST - 11 - 7
TP - 10 - 3
WS - 11 - 11



I would never challenge what these guy said. But I will give my preference:

AB: 15-21 (I have never had a high end aimed blow but 15 works for me)
BA - 5-11 (When I used a 5 Df basher, I balanced it with a ST 17. I gave
him whatever I felt like because he wasn't well suited to
anything else.lol)
LU-7-11
PL-11-13
PR-15-21
PS-11-13
SL-11-13
ST- 7-11
TP-11-13
WS-13 + (I was taught that wall of steels were supposed to be
defenders and not very offensive.)
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KidArcane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay, I get it. Personally, I strive to NEVER have or keep a warrior with anything less than an 11 DF (other than a BA or LU). It seems that others are much more liberal with a much wider variety of styles.

So doesn't it affect a fighter's ability to attack? Or is it simply a matter of skills? If the skills are made up in ST or WT, then it doesn't matter what the DF is, other than weapon choices? Is that it? Confused

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Assurnasirbanipal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is 11 deftness desired on virtually all styles (but especially lower attack / parry styles)? Yes.

Is 21 deftness desired on virtually all AB's? Yes.

Are these required?

Absolutely not!
Eventually you can train the deftness.
7-10 deftness makes for a nice bust out at some point

Job, an AB, has TV'd 3 of the last 4 Freshmen tourneys. He still has 3 deftness.

There have been TC's with 3 deftness.

***
Yes, I am known for doing the strange and weird (and often unsuccessful). But saying a warrior or style must have such and such a deftness is false advertising, even for tourney success.

My experience with styles that do 'best' with lower deftness (usually 7):
B, L, WOS, TP, PL
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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

KidArcane wrote:
Okay, I get it. Personally, I strive to NEVER have or keep a warrior with anything less than an 11 DF (other than a BA or LU). It seems that others are much more liberal with a much wider variety of styles.

So doesn't it affect a fighter's ability to attack? Or is it simply a matter of skills? If the skills are made up in ST or WT, then it doesn't matter what the DF is, other than weapon choices? Is that it? Confused


At most I think it may hamper their ability to hit, or maybe even protect, the location you select. Also may mean they are more likely to spread their attacks around; as has been mentioned it's best to hit the same location continually as it will usually take less hits to cause a warrior to give up that way.

It also may have to do with making them more likely to get "knocked off their feet" as well as get up afterwards. Many have discussed this in relation to the Coordination statements (SP+DF 0-16=Clumsy;17-20 Slightly Uncoordinated; 21-27= normal) so theoretically with SP raised up it can possibly offset this area of low DF effect.

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KidArcane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Street_Legal wrote:
At most I think it may hamper their ability to hit, or maybe even protect, the location you select. Also may mean they are more likely to spread their attacks around; as has been mentioned it's best to hit the same location continually as it will usually take less hits to cause a warrior to give up that way.

It also may have to do with making them more likely to get "knocked off their feet" as well as get up afterwards. Many have discussed this in relation to the Coordination statements (SP+DF 0-16=Clumsy;17-20 Slightly Uncoordinated; 21-27= normal) so theoretically with SP raised up it can possibly offset this area of low DF effect.


This has all been very helpful. Thanks, everyone.

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Nomad
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Assurnasirbanipal wrote:


Job, an AB, has TV'd 3 of the last 4 Freshmen tourneys. He still has 3 deftness.



Ok, sure. But you didn't you say somewhere that Job started his career 0-72??!! Even if he has TV'd freshmen, I'm not sure this counts as an endorsement for 3 deftness warriors!

As for the topic, I am very willing to run low deftness warriors. About the only time I hesitate is with any style that starts with "parry." Even then I would go as low as 7 under the right circumstances, I just wouldn't consider it ideal. And AB, of course, despite the amazing Job. (I keep wondering when I see that name if that makes the manager God or the Devil.)
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Longshot
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Assurnasirbanipal wrote:

My experience with styles that do 'best' with lower deftness (usually 7):
B, L, WOS, TP, PL


What kind of weapons can a Deftness 7 wall of steel use?
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_Buri_
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Longshot wrote:
What kind of weapons can a Deftness 7 wall of steel use?


War Flail (not recommended) and Broadsword

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Hawk
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This is from last year's mail-in.

LU TV in rooks: 11 12 9 17 21 9 7

Fought every fight with the SS


I do try for 11 DFT on most warriors though.

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One Armed Bandit
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think, by far, the best styles for low DF are BA and SL. Both are fairly high attack in comparison to the other total offensive (ST) so they don't need the Attack skills from DF as much (they'd much rather have Dec skills from SP, for instance), and have a good choice of weaponry with a low DF.

I've TV'd with a 3 DF SL recently and done better with a 7 DF SL and a 7 DF BA. I'm also willing to go low DF on WS, TP, and LU occasionally.

I think low DF isn't a huge detriment to success. It seems to affect your warrior's ability to stand back up after getting knocked down and draw a back-up weapon when the primary weapon breaks, but these events happen rarely enough that it doesn't have a huge impact on them. For me, DF is mostly about the skills and the weapon selection it provides.
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Longshot
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

_Buri_ wrote:
Longshot wrote:
What kind of weapons can a Deftness 7 wall of steel use?


War Flail (not recommended) and Broadsword


I forgot about broadsword and never considered war flail.
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The Consortium
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Uh, THE DEVIL MADE US DO IT!
Deleted double-post.
Mea Culpa


But ..... HAPPY BLACK FRIDAY!

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Last edited by The Consortium on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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