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Duel2 :: View topic - Down Challenging
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trmweb
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I've been thinking about this topic and have some questions about it. Mainly, I'm wondering if down challenging based on "points" is questionable in some cases?

For example, if your PR with a good record looses 20 points from a mismatched fight loss then challenges a fighter with only one more point than them, but half the fights.

In my mind this does meet the "letter" of not down challenging, but not the "spirit". Especially when the challenge is against a newer manager. (Note: I'm asking this of "Andorian-minded" managers who consider it dishonorable to down challenge.)

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You will find much discussion on your points elsewhere here. (Have to search - not sure where.) It is clearly a discussionable topic.

From the Andorian Viewpoint, recognition points are deemed the measurement method, since that is what The Commission uses for rankings. However, there are some seemingly highly sportsmanlike Andorian managers who will not challenge up, when it appears that the to-be-upchallenged is quite a bit less experienced than one's warrior.

In other types of arenas (Free and Dark)nit is really a moot point how up/down is defined as there are, in general, no "implied restrictions" to downchallenging.

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Nomad
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In my opinion:

Down-challenges are only determined by points, not FE. The whole point of the point system is to rank warriors, so if you have more points than me the ranking says your better than me. My challenge says I think you are not. I see no reason why a warrior who climbs too quickly should get a free pass on having anyone challenge them. That is the flaw of rising too fast. So, to me, a 30 FE warrior with 50 points challenging a 10FE warrior with 55 points is NOT a down challenge. But a 10 FE warrior with 55 pts challenging a 50 pt, 30 FE warrior IS a down-challenge.

I know most managers don't see it this way. Most seem to think both points and FE should be included. I fully consider my attitudes to be Andorian, by the way.

I also don't think top ranked warriors get to down-challenge just because there was no one available to challenge. That is one of the down-sides of being successful. If I have the top CC in the arena- I have only one challenge to make - the Duelmaster. If that doesn't look good, I just don't challenge.

I also know that many don't agree with this as numerous managers have said things like, "I know it was down, but there was nobody above me available." As if this was an excuse. Down is down. Period.

Addition: I also do try to avoid challenging new managers if I know they are as well as avoiding repeating the same challenges over-and over-and over.

So say I, but not many others. I just play my way and try not to get bent out of shape if others play their own way.

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gentleben
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nomad wrote:
In my opinion:

Down-challenges are only determined by points, not FE. The whole point of the point system is to rank warriors, so if you have more points than me the ranking says your better than me. My challenge says I think you are not. I see no reason why a warrior who climbs too quickly should get a free pass on having anyone challenge them. That is the flaw of rising too fast. So, to me, a 30 FE warrior with 50 points challenging a 10FE warrior with 55 points is NOT a down challenge. But a 10 FE warrior with 55 pts challenging a 50 pt, 30 FE warrior IS a down-challenge.

I know most managers don't see it this way. Most seem to think both points and FE should be included. I fully consider my attitudes to be Andorian, by the way.

I also don't think top ranked warriors get to down-challenge just because there was no one available to challenge. That is one of the down-sides of being successful. If I have the top CC in the arena- I have only one challenge to make - the Duelmaster. If that doesn't look good, I just don't challenge.

I also know that many don't agree with this as numerous managers have said things like, "I know it was down, but there was nobody above me available." As if this was an excuse. Down is down. Period.

Addition: I also do try to avoid challenging new managers if I know they are as well as avoiding repeating the same challenges over-and over-and over.

So say I, but not many others. I just play my way and try not to get bent out of shape if others play their own way.


I agree with everything except I consider FE when I make my up challenges. I never DC on purpose (my strats get lost and don't process until next turn).

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Assurnasirbanipal
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The recognition system is easy to manipulate and while I won't say it is meaningless, it is not the 'best' way for a manager who wishes to challenge with honor to base his challenges from.

That said, I have no issues with down challenging or being down challenged. It is part of the game and within the rules. I can give as well as I get and have been known to make horrible challenges both up and down (horrible from both my standpoint and my opponent's, depending on the challenge).

One nice thing about the Delarquan way is that you need make no apologies with regards to challenges. Calling yourself a Delarquan also means you need not answer any questions with regards to whether you fight and challenge honorably or not.
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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Assurnasirbanipal wrote:
The recognition system is easy to manipulate and while I won't say it is meaningless, it is not the 'best' way for a manager who wishes to challenge with honor to base his challenges from.

That said, I have no issues with down challenging or being down challenged. It is part of the game and within the rules. I can give as well as I get and have been known to make horrible challenges both up and down (horrible from both my standpoint and my opponent's, depending on the challenge).

One nice thing about the Delarquan way is that you need make no apologies with regards to challenges. Calling yourself a Delarquan also means you need not answer any questions with regards to whether you fight and challenge honorably or not.


Let's see if I can explain this and not cause the furor that wound up with the "Aruak Invasion".

Realizing that recognition is not the best measure of a warrior, and his abilities, I think the "Andorian Way" puts some Role-Play into the matter. Since the recognition system has been deemed the way the commission ranks warriors skill. We of course now know how to measure a warrior better with the BAGMAN II and Terrablood charts, among other charts and general points of knowledge, but Andorians tend to see it in the sense that if the commission ranks Warrior A above Warrior B then Warrior A is better. This is obviously not always the case but I look a it this way:

A Boxer or MMA fighter is ranked #6 in his weight class with a record of 15-1, by A commission. In looking for an opponent to move him towards a title shot, and up in the rankings, there are probably hundreds of fighters with records like 12-30, or 22-20 even, and then the #3 in the weight class has a record of 11-0, perhaps an ex-Olympian. What would fight fans, and commissioners, think if he fought the #59 ranked fighter in the weight class with a 22-20 record rather than the less experienced, yet higher ranked, 11-0 fighter?

Again I realize this game is a lot easier to surmise, by FE and record, which warrior is better than the other, but I think from a RP aspect it makes pretty good sense to use recognition points. After all if a warrior is ranked higher in recognition he is "deemed better by the arena's commission". Even in Aruak, the ONLY arena I played by the true "Andorian Creed", I didn't so much mind low (1-4) FE warriors, in Initiates or Challenger Initiates, challenging down a few points; less point differentials were tolerated the more FE the DC'er had. Like a 33 point 6-15 warrior challenging my 1 point 0-1 fighter was a total insult whereas a 1-0-1 33 point warrior, who survived the Dark Arena, challenging the same warrior was only a minor insult realizing the guy was probably pretty bad but just got lucky and jumped the Mountain Troll so he needed an easy target! Adepts and above, again mostly in Aruak, even a 1 point DC could raise my ire. Of course in any city other than Aruak your DC would probably be followed up by at least 2 of mine DC'ing yours the next turn, as well as a mental note being made that "I owe you," and/or "You started it!"

Some exceptions Andorians tend to be more accepting of are DC's during bloodfeuds, after all we "Don't kill each other in Andoria," if you do so you need to be made an example of what happens to non-compliant Andorian arena warriors, or from the Duelmaster. The DM is considered the highest ranked warrior regardless of recognition points. So a warrior with 125 recognition could "Up Challenge" a 95 point DM. Most, but not all, Andorians also consider the privilege of being DM excuses you from "DC issues" and are free to do so. Of course there's always the no KD over 7 and only aiming for arms and legs (non-vitals) that are NOT a privilege of being DM and must still be adhered too, for fear of retaliation.

And to be PERFECTLY clear nobody is telling anybody how they HAVE TO PLAY but rather a suggestion on how we can all get along in Andoria as well as for the future defense of the Isle of the Eye we need to preserve life .... not take it!

I think it all stemmed from people who were sick of spending up to 25, 30, or even 40 fights (as well as the $30, $45, or $60) to develop a warrior only to have it killed within a few turns of it's graduation. I say "I think," because I was not around when this practice began. I think, again, it was the Ivory League that started it.

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Last edited by Street_Legal on Mon May 06, 2013 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Darque
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I take the Occam's Razor approach to the DC issue:

1) If you want to DC whether by recognition or FE, do it.

2) If you don't want to DC whether by recognition or FE, don't do it.

3) Caveat: This game is not played in a vacuum, so your choice will have consequences based upon which arena you are in, which managers are in that arena, etc. Choosing #1 may put you in the crosshairs of one who subscribes to #2 and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I use recognition points as the only measure of whether or not a challenge is an up challenge or not. If a warrior showing 30 FE has 50 recognition points and a warrior showing 10 FE has 60 recognition points, then I personally have no problem challenging the 60 recognition warrior with the 50.

That being said, in today's "state of the game", visible FE is a VERY misleading number as it is all too common that a warrior has hidden tournament FE behind him as well... hence the reason for his higher recognition. Minimum arena recognition is calculated as:

Arena wins - 3 pts
Arena losses - 1 pt
Arena kills - 1 pt
Tournament fights (not FE) - 1 pt

Given that..... I use arena recognition as the basis for my challenging.

Another issue to contend is that some arenas are very small (3 to 4 teams) whereas back in the day most arenas had 20-40 teams. Pickings for challenges are slim to none in certain places which may or may not affect one's decision on who to challenge.

Like others have said.... every manager has their own "mantra" that they play by and nobody's opinion is wrong. Down challenges happen... I do them from time to time.... from what I've seen the large majority of managers have little to no issue with it as long as it's not abusive.

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Street_Legal
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think your off a little bit on your tourney points Marmaduke, though I could be misunderstanding the way you wrote it.

The way tourney experience is calculated into recognition points is:

1 Tourney FE - 2 points ; this is done individually by tournament and is not cumulative over multiple tourneys.

So it is as follows:

1-2 tourney fights - 1 FE - 2 RP(recognition points)
3-4 tourney fights - 2 FE - 4 RP
5-6 tourney fights - 3 FE - 6 RP
7-8 tourney fights - 4 FE - 8 RP
9-10 tourney fights - 5 FE - 10 RP
etc.

So if my guy has no arena fights and in his first tourney goes 4-3 (4 FE;8 RP) and then goes 6-3 (5 FE; 10 RP) then he fights in the arena and loses he will start off with 19 recognition points minimum(assuming he lost to a rookie or low ranked, probably under 20 point, warrior; he could be at 20 or 21 if he say lost to a 5-0 33 recognition warrior).

The tourney recognition ALWAYS has an even number, added to overall minimum recognition, that's how people deduced the way it adds to recognition. If you look all those first fight warriors tend to come in 0-1,5 ; 0-1,7 ; 0-1,13. And it also continues to add only "even" amounts of recognition throughout a warrior's career so we're pretty secure in the understanding of it.

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mordraith
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

wait you can challenge up?? ...does not compute...

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

mordraith wrote:
wait you can challenge up?? ...does not compute...


Rumor has it The Doomies HAD to challenge down to find someone with a slight possibility they could beat. Wink We never really believed the truth of that statement. Rolling Eyes

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